Is Satan a Mormon god?

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_Amore
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Amore »

SPG wrote:I haven't been able to word the spirit in some clever phrase, but the Golden Rule is basically the Spirit of Christ, the spirit that allows things to work and be created. When this rule is broken, karma basically kicks up in the consciousness demanding atonement or breakdown and destruction. Of course, forgiveness, kindness, humility, all play a part in the balance. But I have heard this put a different way, "do unto others, for it WILL be done unto you."

I believe in a type of karma or spiritual cause-and-effect, but I wonder how it works. Is it based on action, intent, the joy or pain others feel because of us, or what?
_SPG
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _SPG »

Amore wrote:
SPG wrote:I haven't been able to word the spirit in some clever phrase, but the Golden Rule is basically the Spirit of Christ, the spirit that allows things to work and be created. When this rule is broken, karma basically kicks up in the consciousness demanding atonement or breakdown and destruction. Of course, forgiveness, kindness, humility, all play a part in the balance. But I have heard this put a different way, "do unto others, for it WILL be done unto you."

I believe in a type of karma or spiritual cause-and-effect, but I wonder how it works. Is it based on action, intent, the joy or pain others feel because of us, or what?


Cause and effect is part of it. But cause and effect are sort of physical. Like hitting a beehive with a stick.

But I think there is a "god" layer to karma. I believe the whole system is based on consciousness and that there many layers.

To be a little gross, but say that some innocent 8 year old boy, exploring his environment, stumbles upon some baby ducks. Not really knowing better yet, attacks them, kills them. He might not ever feel bad. He might have grown up killing dear, sheep, and stuff, and never thought twice. But his mother pulls him aside and tells him that it was wrong to kill innocent animals.

Now, there could be dozens of physical karmic reasons why killing baby ducks is wrong. Maybe the ducks were to be food later and the family goes hungry. That could be a cause and effect. But the higher consciousness of the mother, (hypothetically) conveyed the needless pain. The boy will feel bad and feel that some of the pain through guilt.

In my belief, even if the hypothetical mother wasn't present, there is a consciousness that will remember that pain. That same consciousness is tied into ours but we don't feel it because of the veil. That consciousness will try to teach us. It will try to make us feel bad for wrongs we have committed. It will try to make us feel guilty for needless pain we caused.

But, there is a judgment. Say that instead of a boy, it was a hungry wolf that killed the baby ducks. That wolf would never feel the guilt. The higher consciousness probably wouldn't expect the wolf to feel bad.

So guilt is definitely tied to identity. If someone knows better, or should know better, the memory of pain will follow them until it is acknowledged. If it is acknowledged quickly and easily, it can be over quickly. But if the person resists acknowledgment, the memory can haunt them for a longtime.

Confession has a mystical power, used and recognized several healing systems. Even if you admit the wrong in your head, the release may not come until you confess your wrong to another living person. In a sense, this is the higher consciousness holding the memory and the energy of the pain until you confess it as wrong. Not just confess it as in bragging, but confess as in you know it was wrong.
_Amore
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Amore »

Hi SPG,
So, there are karma layers - or different ripple effects - of our actions and intentions. Let's say, the boy who killed the baby ducks had no idea he was doing it - maybe he hugged them so hard and tried to get them to swim that he killed them - whatever - basically he didn't mean to kill them - but he did. Would he still have some karma debt to pay - at some point? A guy who was possessed explained that each of us had karma-type files to work through - with meditation or other positive practices - and how he was working through not only his karma but the other guy's too. I wonder, what's the ideal way to handle karma? I realize part of it is to work through unhealed things - so we don't cause more pain for ourselves or others. Still, so much of what we do is forgotten - maybe not subconsciously - but not in our immediate awareness. Some say karma is even accumulated from many lives - how are we supposed to deal with all of that if we don't know about it?

I'm thinking that distorted or tangled up but ultimately negative intentions - whether the end result is good or bad - will cause karma consequences metaphysically within one's psychology or even physiology. It's much more complicated when other people and all of their feelings, intentions, reactions and actions are involved.

Sometimes I see karma in my life - like if I hurt someone - then someone hurts me. When I was a teen, I got involved with some gang activity. A guy wanted to steal a car stereo - he gave me this gun powder to throw to get into the car and I did - and he tried, but he didn't have time to get the stereo out before sirens were heard. About 10 years later, my car got broken into - in a decent neighborhood. Can't help but wonder if it was a case of "what comes around goes around" - even if it isn't immediate.
_SPG
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _SPG »

Karma has taken many different forms over the years. I think one of the first forms was "eye for an eye."

Contrary to what most believe karma is not about punishing. It is about bringing understanding of our influence on the universe. so if we hurt someone the point of karma would be for us to feel that pain. If it was an accident and we already know how our actions influenced another then there is no need for karma. The Bible gives descriptions about how God forgives and forgets. In those descriptions if we change the word god for consciousness it makes more sense. God can forgive us if we learned our lesson. In other words Consciousness can forgive us if we learned our lesson.

We can have guilt even if there is no reason for it. So karma and guilt are not the same thing. When I say there is group Karma I am talking about things that the group does that need to be corrected. You brought up the idea of gangs. What you did you may have regret it and learned your lesson. There may be no need for karma to come back at you. But that we have this unexplainable phenomenon in our culture that creates gangs it's something that we are doing wrong. Somehow we are creating an environment that children and grown ups find themselves needing to defend themselves against the rest of the culture. That is something that is wrong with our culture and it is creating Karma.

Take someone who is dying of cancer. It is not because of something they did personally but because of something that we as a culture are doing. We are doing something wrong and we are ignoring the warning signs. We are ignoring the messages that nature is trying to give us about our wrongdoings. But because we continue to ignore the message innocent people will continue to die. Are there such things might be the garbage and trash issues going on in America. Everyday we put out our trash on the street that goes to a landfill. We ignore that this is not sustainable. At some time we will face the karma for the harm we have done to Mother Earth.

I too have done things that I regret. I have vandalized people's equipment when I was young. And so when my truck was stripped of its stereo equipment I too wondered if it was because of what I did. But I realize now that it's more about something we are doing wrong in the social practice. There are many cultures were the youth do not feel the need to attack the culture. I don't know if this is good or bad. I like America and I would not exchange it for the peaceful lifestyles of primitive tribes in Africa or in the Arctic Circle. We have to work through what we are doing wrong. Because we misunderstand Karma we want to punish the wrongdoers. We should be trying to understand why they feel the need to do wrong and correct that. That is what I mean by karma in layers.

On a personal level however, if you do something wrong and do not regret it and you should know better then Karma will haunt you. At some point you will realize that what you did was wrong and you will feel that pain.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Hagoth wrote:If you think about it, the Mormon Satan isn't such a bad guy. God asked for a plan to bring his children home and Satan offered a very practical, effective solution. Basically, it is the solution the church seems to wish they could implement, considering the removal of "free" from free agency and all.

The plan that was chosen is a pretty bad one, considering that the goal was to bring the kids home. It starts with God loosing a third of them right off the bat. Then he sends the rest to a foreign planet with no memory of him to test them on their obedience to him (!), but he fails to let 99.99% of them know about his plan, or that he even exists. He gives them urges and appetites but he puts another notch in his smiting belt every time they succumb to them and he outright slaughters a lot of them for not being adequately impressed by him, and again, most of them didn't even know about him.

But in the end, Satan is still the star of the show because if he wasn't stupid enough to keep whispering in our ears to sip some iced tea or touch our naughty bits God's chosen plan would have fallen apart the minute he plunked two naked people in a garden.

In the end, God's whole plan hinged entirely on the cooperation of his greatest enemy, the talking snake who's plan was rejected in the first place. Brilliant.

Thank goodness a tiny percent of us really special people were born into just the right circumstances to benefit from this secret plan.

The best summary and over view I have ever read. That was just awesome Hagoth.
Dr CamNC4Me
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_Amore
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Amore »

SPG wrote:...Contrary to what most believe karma is not about punishing. It is about bringing understanding of our influence on the universe. so if we hurt someone the point of karma would be for us to feel that pain. If it was an accident and we already know how our actions influenced another then there is no need for karma. The Bible gives descriptions about how God forgives and forgets. In those descriptions if we change the word god for consciousness it makes more sense. God can forgive us if we learned our lesson. In other words Consciousness can forgive us if we learned our lesson.

We can have guilt even if there is no reason for it. So karma and guilt are not the same thing. When I say there is group Karma I am talking about things that the group does that need to be corrected. You brought up the idea of gangs. What you did you may have regret it and learned your lesson. There may be no need for karma to come back at you. But that we have this unexplainable phenomenon in our culture that creates gangs it's something that we are doing wrong. Somehow we are creating an environment that children and grown ups find themselves needing to defend themselves against the rest of the culture. That is something that is wrong with our culture and it is creating Karma....

Thanks for explaining this, SPG. It makes sense and reminds me of the need for emotional intelligence.
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Imwashingmypirate »

Surely the name of whom you worship is irrelevant because the name is what we humans apply to what we imagine to be. We have never seen Satan but call what we perceive to be the overlord of hell by that name. So if we worship God, with the image of something in particular in mind then it is the image in mind we are worshipping, regardless of name. I don't worship Satan because I am not imagining speaking to a being that is evil or negative.

On the other hand, it has been said that Satan and Jesus got mixed up and the wrong one was sent to hell instead. But in terms of worship, I believe that if I think good thoughts with respect to whomever I am praying to and imagine that being to be loving then that is who I am worshipping.
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Themis »

Imwashingmypirate wrote:Surely the name of whom you worship is irrelevant because the name is what we humans apply to what we imagine to be. We have never seen Satan but call what we perceive to be the overlord of hell by that name. So if we worship God, with the image of something in particular in mind then it is the image in mind we are worshipping, regardless of name. I don't worship Satan because I am not imagining speaking to a being that is evil or negative.

On the other hand, it has been said that Satan and Jesus got mixed up and the wrong one was sent to hell instead. But in terms of worship, I believe that if I think good thoughts with respect to whomever I am praying to and imagine that being to be loving then that is who I am worshipping.


I hear satanists think Satan is really the good guy. :twisted:
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_Philo Sofee
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Themis:
I hear satanists think Satan is really the good guy.

The Bible portrays him as the truth teller in the Garden of Eden, while God lied, so they have a point! :eek:
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Re: Is Satan a Mormon god?

Post by _reflexzero »

If Jehovah and the Holy Ghost can somehow be gods without meeting the mortal requirements of exaltation, Satan would be in the same category.

Or it was in the script.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
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