The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-existen

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_The CCC
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

Post by _The CCC »

Amore wrote:As much as I'd love to argue for what is already scientifically and experientially obvious regarding anatomy and reproduction, I know that just as Mormons tend to want to believe only their own biases, same with others who have been fooled by BS.
But please, feel free to discuss your own perspectives of what medical books should say. ;)

Sugary carbonated drinks can mess up teeth (acidity and sugar) as well as other health issues, like obesity, bloating, dehydration (caffeine in coffee may too).

I've never heard any health benefits of drinking soda (only liabilities), unlike coffee.
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthier-way ... ine?page=2


Everyone has biases. It is part of the human condition. But it is highly unlikely we all have the same biases.

Sure anything used to excess has negative influences on our health. It is unlikely a once a week cigarette will have lasting ill effects on someone, unless they are allergic to it. But that doesn't make it a good thing. A small cup of coffee, or sugary drink once a week won't have much of a ill effect on someone, again if they not allergic to it. As a LDS I've agreed to not drink coffee, booze or use tobacco. I live up to my agreements not because it may be good for my health, but because I agreed to it.
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

Post by _spotlight »

Thanks Frank for yet another signature line.

In time the physical bodies we have will be enhanced to obtain energy directly from nature.- Franktalk


In appreciation for your contribution to laughter in my life I am gifting you the following avatar.

Image
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

Post by _spotlight »

The CCC wrote:Sure anything used to excess has negative influences on our health. It is unlikely a once a week cigarette will have lasting ill effects on someone, unless they are allergic to it. But that doesn't make it a good thing. A small cup of coffee, or sugary drink once a week won't have much of a ill effect on someone, again if they not allergic to it. As a LDS I've agreed to not drink coffee, booze or use tobacco. I live up to my agreements not because it may be good for my health, but because I agreed to it.


JOSEPH'S BAR

In Nauvoo Joseph Smith sold liquor; the following ordinance was passed in 1843 (the reader must remember that Joseph Smith was Mayor of Nauvoo at the time):

"Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors.

"Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.

"Passed December 12, 1843.

Joseph Smith, Mayor.

"Willard Richards, Recorder." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 111)

Joseph Smith's own son related the following:

"About 1842, a new and larger house was built for us.... Father proceeded to build an extensive addition running out from the south wing toward the east....

"At any rate, it seemed spacious then, and a sign was put out giving it the dignified name of 'The Nauvoo Mansion,'... Mother was to be installed as landlady, and soon made a trip to Saint Louis... "When she returned Mother found installed in the keeping - room of the hotel--that is to say, the main room where the guests assembled and where they were received upon arrival--A bar, with counter, shelves, bottles, glasses, and other paraphernalia customary for a fully-equipped tavern bar, and Porter Rockwell in charge as tender.

"She was very much surprised and disturbed over this arrangement, but said nothing for a while...she asked me where Father was. I told her he was in the front room... Then she told me to go and tell him she wished to see him. I obeyed, and returned with him to the hall where Mother awaited him. 'Joseph,' she asked, 'What is the meaning of that bar in this house?'... 'How does it look,' she asked, 'for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which is a room fitted out as a liquor-selling establishment?'

"He reminded her that all taverns had their bars at which liquor was sold or dispensed...

"Mother's reply came emphatically clear, though uttered quietly:

"'Well, Joseph,... I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; either that bar goes out of the house, or we will!'

"It did not take Father long to make the choice, for he replied immediately, 'Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once'--and he did." (The Saints' Herald, Jan. 22, 1935, page 110)

Joseph Smith even tried to justify drunkenness because of the example of Noah. The following appears in Joseph Smith's History of the Church:

"Sunday, 7.--Elder William O. Clark preached about two hours, reproved the Saints for a lack of sanctity, and a want of holy living, enjoining sanctity, solemnity and temperance in the extreme, in the ridgid sectarian style.

"I reproved him as Pharisaical and hypocritical.... What many call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down;' I referred to the curse of Ham for laughing at Noah, while in his wine, but doing no harm. Noah was a righteous man, and yet he drank wine and became intoxicated; the Lord did not forsake him in consequence thereof, for he retained all the power of his priesthood, and when he was accused by Canaan, he cursed him by the priesthood which he held, and the Lord had respect to his word, and the priesthood which he held, notwithstanding he was drunk, and the curse remains upon the posterity of Canaan until this day." (History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 445-446)

http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_wordofwisdom.html
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

Post by _spotlight »



CCC's ref wrote:the revelation was given to Joseph Smith at Kirtland, Ohio, on February 27, 1833, when the School of the Prophets was meeting at his home in the Whitney Store. It came in response to the Prophet's inquiry about tobacco, which was being used by some of the men attending the school.

And not mentioned is the fact that the "prophet's inquiry" was due to complaints from his upset wife about the mess. How convenient.

The following appeared in an interview with David Whitmer which was published in the Des Moines Daily News: "...quite a little party of the brethren and sisters being assembled in Smith's house. Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith (who, Mr. Whitmer insists, was a lady of predisposed refinement) to make the ironical remark that 'It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding its suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggesting that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter 'dig' at the sisters. Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the 'Word of Wisdom' was the result." (The Des Moines Daily News, Saturday, October 16, 1886)


Early in the history of the church the temperature was the issue, even hot soup was forbidden. Then caffeine became the issue. Now just the fiat application to coffee and tea is the law. In other words no rationale is known or offered.

our tests of popular dark chocolates showed that, other than one bar which provides 7 mg of caffeine, the others provide about 40 to 50 mg of caffeine per listed serving (about 40 grams of chocolate). This is about how much you would get from a can of cola or a cup of green tea and about half the amount in a cup of regular, brewed coffee.
https://www.consumerlab.com/answers/How ... chocolate/


Cocoa powders to make one cup of hot chocolate are about the same amount as half a cup of coffee.
Medical evidence shows that coffee, tea and alcohol in moderation are healthful for the body.

Joseph's "miraculous revelation" is just a representation of the folk knowledge of his day.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

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"In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien, who first expressed this theory, the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West. Just a few years before, Robert Owen had abolished the use of ardent spirits in his community at New Harmony. In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society, called at first the Cold Water Society by way of contempt. In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted in full, and with the hearty personal endorsement of Alexander Campbell, an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,' which in turn was quoting a widely circulated book. 'The Simplicity of Health,' which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, theeating intemperately of meats... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year.... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one....it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood.

"McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time." (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40)

Whitney R. Cross gives this information:

"The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830's it attained national scope... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong...Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society--no tea, coffee or any other slops.'" (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212)
http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_wordofwisdom.html


Mormons make much of one positive coincidence in a sea of failures. I know, I was a Mormon myself. It is sort of just the opposite of the scientific method that looks for ways to disprove theories so as to advance our models. Where in science one bit of discordant persistent data is enough to cause a revision to our models in religion one bit of coincidence is taken to be validation for a fantasy realm that otherwise is overwhelmingly contradicted by just about everything we know and understand about the world.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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Re: The consequences of living a non-valiant life in pre-exi

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:
Mormons make much of one positive coincidence in a sea of failures. I know, I was a Mormon myself. It is sort of just the opposite of the scientific method that looks for ways to disprove theories so as to advance our models. Where in science one bit of discordant persistent data is enough to cause a revision to our models in religion one bit of coincidence is taken to be validation for a fantasy realm that otherwise is overwhelmingly contradicted by just about everything we know and understand about the world.


Mopologists celebrating confirmation bias, Dunning-Kruger ignorance and working backwards from conclusions, circular reasoning...I call that "antiscience". :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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