The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith

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_Mittens
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Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith

Post by _Mittens »

jo1952 wrote:
Mittens wrote:Traditional Christians have always taught ONE GOD three persons, developed already in first chapter of the Bible. 1+1+1=1


What, exactly, is a traditional Christian? Are they the Christians who only believed in the Trinity AFTER it was made an official doctrine? Because it was NOT something believed from the beginning by all those who followed the man called Christ. Even from the first when Christ began to have people follow Him around, there was no single set of official doctrines. In fact, Christ didn't teach doctrine...though He did address the doctrine of the already established religion of Judaism.

If one was to carefully study the history of the early church, and then move forward to the early church fathers, it can be seen how diverse beliefs and opinions were. Even after there was a core of men who became the early church fathers began to be recognized, there was no agreement. An agreement was forced to be made; and when the most powerful men had decided that this was what was needed to be doctrine, those most powerful men kicked those who weren't in agreement out of the church. Any who didn't agree with this doctrine instantly became heretics. It was no longer convenient to have anyone around who wouldn't accept the Trinity doctrine because those who didn't agree became a threat to those who had the power of control over the church. The Trinity had become a political tool used to bring the more powerful men control and prestige and glory and money; that is how it became doctrine. Aside from how it became doctrine, the methodology of how it works and what it exactly looks like, has remained a hot bed of debate. The RCC even admitted that it was a mystery that could not be understood...but that it still had to be believed in order for a person to be allowed to become a member of the RCC.

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of dedicated research to find the records that show what was going on. More than once, the history of the church shows that records were destroyed in order that the agenda of those who had power could hide what they didn't want others to find.

Revelations 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


YES!! When He returns, He is going to set up a government which will protect and guaranty the free will of the people. The free will they will be able to exercise will be in accordance with their desires. Our "work" can't be done that way now because mankind practices unrighteous dominion over mankind. We have never been able to create a government which works righteously. As a result, our free will is limited by what others will allow us to do; it is also limited because we need to work for our basic survival. Because our basic needs for living in this world aren't being met without having to work for them, we don't have time to be able to only do what we want to do (work in accordance with desires of our hearts). Christ will make sure that a system is set up which provides us with our basic needs. This will allow us to then act in accordance with complete free will (as our work shall be).

And YES! Christ was the first born into the second estate. A Christ is always the first in every eternal round....in every world that is ever created. His role is the most important role we need fulfilled....to monitor everyone participating in a world/eternal round and make sure we don't mess with each other's free will and keep any of us from breaking those rules which are set-up to protect the worlds we create. Once a Christ is created into a new eternal round (the first), He is raised with His role in mind. He watches His own personal "Heavenly Father" and learns everything that His Father has done in other worlds. He is also the last in a world/eternal round. In order to continue to protect the free will of all participants, He remains inside that world fulfilling His role until the last participant decides that he is finished participating. Once there is no one left to participate, there is no one's free will that needs to be protected--no one is left that might break that eternity's rules. That is when a Christ is finally relieved of His role (the last).


Interesting how early Mormons taught the Trinity

1. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.30
The Holy Ghost, we believe, is one of the characters that form the Trinity, or the Godhead.


1. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.61
Now I repeat-the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead


1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.312
In our Articles of Faith we declare our belief in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost-in other words, the Trinity. We accept the scriptural doctrine that they are separate and distinct personages. This is one distinguishing and, to some, disturbing doctrine of the Church.


1. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.4, p.264
From these statements, and from many others that might be quoted, it is clear that Adam and Christ are two persons-not the same Person. It is erroneous doctrine to consider them one and the same person, for Jesus is the Christ, a member of the Trinity, the God-head, and to whom Adam, the father of the human family upon this earth, is amenable. Adam will have to account for his stewardship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood atones for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam.
James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.6, p.236



1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

J. Reuben Clark Jr. Second Counselor to the LDS First Presidency speaking to diversified audience in the mid 1940s speaks of God in terms of the Trinity-God has revealed to us that he is the Father of all, and that he loves and cares forth righteous everywhere, and seeks ever to bring back the wayward to his ways. He has made known that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Redeemer of the World, the First Fruits of the Resurrection. He has shown to us that as Jesus died, lay in the tomb, and was resurrected, so shall it be with every son and daughter of God. He has manifested to us that he is a person, that Christ is another person, and that the Holy Ghost is a third person, and that these make
the Trinity of the Godhead



Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maksutov
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Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith

Post by _Maksutov »

Each of Smith's religious products reflects a different stage of his development and show that they emerged to solve practical problems that usually related to extending and maintaining his own power. Judeo-Christian traditions and practices, along with Masonic and other influences, provided the ingredients for his creations. Contradictions often ensued, to be papered over by more revelations or denied and redefined as needed.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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