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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:37 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Spotlingt, I was a bit distracted when I finished that post. Even so I had a suspicion that it might need clarification. I had no intention to distinguish the fate of believers from that of unbelievers> I was viewing both under r the same general arch of development. We all start to disintegrate over time untill we are all gone. If there is actually a God that God could be a renewal of our spirits. That would apply to believers and unbelievers. Or if there is no God the finality of our eventual dissolution also works the same for believers and unbelievers.


Actually in my belief system lower level estates can become so bored they shut themselves off. Then the higher estate just makes a new one with no memories. The highest estate lives through the experience of the lower estates. The highest estate creates an environment so boredom can not manifest and cause a desire to end itself.


Franktalk,

I do not think I have any clear pictures of what living eterally could mean. In fact I am quite capable of wondering if the idea is both absurd and impossible. But I am not convinced. There could be eternal life we understand only tiny amounts of

I can see a point to your comment. If we live just ourself , eternity would get terribly long. The only approach I can imagine to it is an enourmouly expanded living in connection with others. I say that realizing I am the sort of person who values alone time.

Well I enjoy enough alone activities to have learned well that they have limits .


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:09 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
But his thought experiment related to the real world in a manner that it could be tested. It did not deal with something totally unobserved.


You are actually pretty blind. The human condition is all around us. We swim in a sea of beliefs in God and the supernatural. Yet you can't see the forest for the trees. You instead just think people are stupid. Just maybe you are blind to what they feel. There is something in each of us and if we allow it to be turned on then we experience some level of spirituality. To you it is not real because you can't attach a wire to it. But for billions of people it is real. They know there is something more than what we see. Of course they are confused because no one is showing them what true reality actually is. And if they were to be shown they would reject it anyway.

I think you would be hard pressed to design a place more dynamic and more prone for conflict than this place. Almost like someone got bored and designed a place to play in.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:23 pm 
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Spotlight,

Just some info on thought experiments since it appears you are confused.

http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/C ... the_light/


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Spotlight,

Just some info on thought experiments since it appears you are confused.

http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/C ... the_light/


Maybe you are misunderstanding me. Einstein's thoughts about 'em radiation are thoughts about an observable phenomenon.

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:52 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:

Jo, you need to do some reading about what evolutionary theory actually says. All you are showing is that you don't understand it at all.


I understand it. It has the same types of cognitive dissonance found inside of religion. Many of the theories of science suffer the same symptoms. Meanwhile, there are zero scholars on the earth, regardless of their field of study and belief, who have been able to prove anything about human reality (who we are, why we are here, what happens after death).

Followers of religion and science do so because it makes them happy; it makes them happy because they believe what is taught. Followers of both treat those who don't agree with them like crap. Maybe people don't want peace. Or maybe they don't recognize why there is no peace. We are suffering the consequences; and it is getting worse.

I believe that if we could start believing that WE are the "Father"...be able to believe our human reality (who we are, why we are here) is that we are advanced humans participating in a phase of an eternal round, we might have a chance to recover---instead of needing to wait for our "Christ"/Administrator to return and set up the government which will finally heal the world. This means that as things get progressively worse before He comes back, our children and their children are going to be born into worse and worse circumstances. Neither religion nor science have been able to provide us answers concerning human reality; science is looking for physical evidence, and religion is stuck on mystical answers. Neither allows for any other possibility. Thus, we perpetuate our problems without realizing that it is our belief systems which are preventing us from solving our problems. Science doesn't think it matters to know who we are. Science is content with the pursuit of physical evidence. If we believed we are the Father, our perspective would change how we see everything which would then allow us to start saving our world from the suffering our beliefs have perpetuated.

I now believe that it doesn't matter what we believe or what we do inside of mortality, because, in the end, we are still eternal...and that there is a purpose for participating inside of mortality which cannot change who we really are. Some may ask why I am bothering to post if it ultimately doesn't matter. I post because we could change the amount of suffering that takes place inside of mortality. The avatars who enter mortality before the government our Administrator will set-up endure much more suffering than those who enter afterward.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:42 am 
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spotlight wrote:
Maybe you are misunderstanding me. Einstein's thoughts about 'em radiation are thoughts about an observable phenomenon.


No misunderstanding at all. Thought experiments about a greater reality can be verified by dying. Whats the big deal? It is you who places limits on what is considered evidence. Somehow personal evidence has no weight for you. For me it is the only evidence that matters.

Once again you are showing any lack of depth in the human condition. You ignore life's finer aspects and instead limit yourself to book learning. You appear to be a two dimensional book easily replaced by another two dimensional book.

We all will experience death. So we all will have a personal experience that will verify the existence of a greater reality. I am happy with my views on the greater reality and I do not fear leaving this mortal existence. Typically someone with your views on reality scream out for God to save them or cry like babies when the moment arrives. And why is that? Because you have closed off your mind to thinking about anything but this world. People with your world view love this place. I don't love this place. I would love to see it transform into the Kingdom of Heaven. But religious people and science people stand in the way. They love the hell they have made of this place.

1Co_15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:36 am 
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Frank,
I see your penchant for fantasy extends beyond the imagined realm of the afterlife to this life as well. "And why is that?" It is because you imagine it to be so. Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:45 am 
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jo1952 wrote:
Meanwhile, there are zero scholars on the earth, regardless of their field of study and belief, who have been able to prove anything about human reality (who we are, why we are here, what happens after death).

The same holds true for chimpanzees even though they are smarter than humans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A
And there is no evidence even after teaching them to sign that they waste time making up stuff about an afterlife! They beat human intelligence hands down.

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Followers of ... science do so because it makes them happy;

This board never disappoints - least expensive entertainment to be found. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:46 pm 
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jo1952 wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:

Jo, you need to do some reading about what evolutionary theory actually says. All you are showing is that you don't understand it at all.


I understand it. It has the same types of cognitive dissonance found inside of religion. Many of the theories of science suffer the same symptoms. Meanwhile, there are zero scholars on the earth, regardless of their field of study and belief, who have been able to prove anything about human reality (who we are, why we are here, what happens after death).

Followers of religion and science do so because it makes them happy; it makes them happy because they believe what is taught. Followers of both treat those who don't agree with them like crap. Maybe people don't want peace. Or maybe they don't recognize why there is no peace. We are suffering the consequences; and it is getting worse.

I believe that if we could start believing that WE are the "Father"...be able to believe our human reality (who we are, why we are here) is that we are advanced humans participating in a phase of an eternal round, we might have a chance to recover---instead of needing to wait for our "Christ"/Administrator to return and set up the government which will finally heal the world. This means that as things get progressively worse before He comes back, our children and their children are going to be born into worse and worse circumstances. Neither religion nor science have been able to provide us answers concerning human reality; science is looking for physical evidence, and religion is stuck on mystical answers. Neither allows for any other possibility. Thus, we perpetuate our problems without realizing that it is our belief systems which are preventing us from solving our problems. Science doesn't think it matters to know who we are. Science is content with the pursuit of physical evidence. If we believed we are the Father, our perspective would change how we see everything which would then allow us to start saving our world from the suffering our beliefs have perpetuated.

I now believe that it doesn't matter what we believe or what we do inside of mortality, because, in the end, we are still eternal...and that there is a purpose for participating inside of mortality which cannot change who we really are. Some may ask why I am bothering to post if it ultimately doesn't matter. I post because we could change the amount of suffering that takes place inside of mortality. The avatars who enter mortality before the government our Administrator will set-up endure much more suffering than those who enter afterward.


If you understood evolutionary theory, you wouldn't post nonsense about it.

You also wouldn't criticize science for failing to "prove" things.

Science does provide some evidence regarding what you label "human reality."

Who are we? Intelligent relatives of apes. Nothing special.

Why we are here? Random mutation plus non-random natural selection.

What happens after death? We decompose.

It's weird to hear you criticize scientists for not "proving" stuff and then watch you pivot to a bunch of stuff you imagine in your head and try to pass off as "reality."

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Who are we? Intelligent relatives of apes. Nothing special.


So I can call you a monkeys uncle and you would be OK with that?


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:10 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
Frank,
I see your penchant for fantasy extends beyond the imagined realm of the afterlife to this life as well. "And why is that?" It is because you imagine it to be so. Hope that helps.


Let us go on an adventure. Somehow happenstance has turned to you and you find yourself on deaths door. You start to ponder how you body will be eaten by worms and bugs. Slowly over time roots creep in to your now dead body and they shoot tubes into your rotten flesh so it can consume your nutrient rich rotten flesh. In time you become a tree since it is the thing which consumed your body. But you could care less because you have faded to black and have ceased to exist. Never to post snarky comments again for eternity. You had your chance and you made no major impact on anything or anyone. Your whole life was a waste of time. All you did until the day you died was repeat what others told you was true. But that charge your ego felt while it was alive has long since faded. You are nothing and will be nothing for eternity.

I however feel otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:30 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Who are we? Intelligent relatives of apes. Nothing special.


So I can call you a monkeys uncle and you would be OK with that?


I don't care what you call me, Franktalk. It would, however, be inaccurate, as I have no nephews who are monkeys.

What I am is the descendant of a common ancestor of me and my ape cousins. I don't think we have a single word for that.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
spotlight wrote:
Frank,
I see your penchant for fantasy extends beyond the imagined realm of the afterlife to this life as well. "And why is that?" It is because you imagine it to be so. Hope that helps.


Let us go on an adventure. Somehow happenstance has turned to you and you find yourself on deaths door. You start to ponder how you body will be eaten by worms and bugs. Slowly over time roots creep in to your now dead body and they shoot tubes into your rotten flesh so it can consume your nutrient rich rotten flesh. In time you become a tree since it is the thing which consumed your body. But you could care less because you have faded to black and have ceased to exist. Never to post snarky comments again for eternity. You had your chance and you made no major impact on anything or anyone. Your whole life was a waste of time. All you did until the day you died was repeat what others told you was true. But that charge your ego felt while it was alive has long since faded. You are nothing and will be nothing for eternity.

I however feel otherwise.


Here's an important place where I think you and I part company, Franktalk:

I don't believe that wanting my existence not to end at death is a good reason to believe there is life after death.
I don't believe that wanting my life to have a greater purpose is a good reason to believe it has a greater purpose.
I don't believe that being afraid of my existence ending is a good reason to believe it won't.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:42 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
spotlight wrote:
Frank,
I see your penchant for fantasy extends beyond the imagined realm of the afterlife to this life as well. "And why is that?" It is because you imagine it to be so. Hope that helps.


Let us go on an adventure. Somehow happenstance has turned to you and you find yourself on deaths door. You start to ponder how you body will be eaten by worms and bugs. Slowly over time roots creep in to your now dead body and they shoot tubes into your rotten flesh so it can consume your nutrient rich rotten flesh. In time you become a tree since it is the thing which consumed your body. But you could care less because you have faded to black and have ceased to exist. Never to post snarky comments again for eternity. You had your chance and you made no major impact on anything or anyone. Your whole life was a waste of time. All you did until the day you died was repeat what others told you was true. But that charge your ego felt while it was alive has long since faded. You are nothing and will be nothing for eternity.

I however feel otherwise.


You presume too much. I actually spent my career in R&D and helped invent some new technologies. But in time everyone will fade into oblivion. I'm ok with that. Chimpanzees are good with it too as is the rest of the animal kingdom. We are not special. I wonder who in your mind makes what you term a major impact on others? Joseph Smith? His impact will be remembered for that of a con that damaged and wasted lives. The only thing I'd consider a major positive impact would be the technologies that increase our lifespan and the comforts of life. All the woo can be deposited in a dumpster.

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:21 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
You presume too much. I actually spent my career in R&D and helped invent some new technologies. But in time everyone will fade into oblivion. I'm ok with that. Chimpanzees are good with it too as is the rest of the animal kingdom. We are not special. I wonder who in your mind makes what you term a major impact on others? Joseph Smith? His impact will be remembered for that of a con that damaged and wasted lives. The only thing I'd consider a major positive impact would be the technologies that increase our lifespan and the comforts of life. All the woo can be deposited in a dumpster.


So your worth is measured in some R&D? In my world view there is nothing new under the sun. We come here for the experience. The morning sun warming my face. A walk in nature where I hear the sounds of the native animals. Making friends and having relationships. These are things which I value. I will hold onto these memories for eternity. I will live countless lives and help create countless worlds. In the greater realm I have billions of friends and I remember every moment of every mortal life I ever lived. Of the two of us only one of us has their act together. I am sure you feel that is you with your limited sense of worth and your fade to black attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:18 pm 
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Spotlight,

Can a thing which has no purpose give purpose to something else? If there is no purpose for man can man create purpose from nothing? How does your R&D efforts make a difference? If you have no purpose how did you give purpose to your work? Or is this all part of the magic of evolution? Spontaneous purpose from the dust of the earth. If everything returns to dust did purpose really exist?

Just wondering how your fade to black world works.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
So your worth is measured in some R&D? In my world view there is nothing new under the sun. We come here for the experience. The morning sun warming my face. A walk in nature where I hear the sounds of the native animals. Making friends and having relationships. These are things which I value.

How many false dichotomies can you create? Why is R&D in some sort of competition with other experiences of life? A walk in nature? I spent every free minute of my youth and young adult life backpacking in the Sierras. It was my favorite activity. I can cherish friendships as well as the next person. You don't have to abandon science and man's accomplishments and accumulation of knowledge to enjoy these other areas of life.

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I will hold onto these memories for eternity. I will live countless lives and help create countless worlds. In the greater realm I have billions of friends and I remember every moment of every mortal life I ever lived. Of the two of us only one of us has their act together.

Not sure I can help you with the narcissistic fantasies. Yeah I guess it is possible that your unevidenced view of the eternities is spot on and your deep understanding of physics will be restored to you when you die and this proves you are right not to work to comprehend any of that here. Heck, why work at all. The worst that could result is you die as a result, at which time you are restored to your former grandiose glory and exalted status.

Quote:
...your limited sense of worth

Wow, you're not full of yourself are you? But I'll accept that assessment from you if on a sliding scale it just happens to lie to the left of your unlimited sense of self importance.

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:38 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Can a thing which has no purpose give purpose to something else? If there is no purpose for man can man create purpose from nothing? How does your R&D efforts make a difference? If you have no purpose how did you give purpose to your work? Or is this all part of the magic of evolution? Spontaneous purpose from the dust of the earth. If everything returns to dust did purpose really exist?

Just wondering how your fade to black world works.


In a famous 1971 paper, “The Absurd,” Thomas Nagel argues that life’s absurdity has nothing to do with its length. If a short life is absurd, he says, a longer life would be even more absurd: “Our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute. But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we lived forever; would not a life that is absurd if it lasts 70 years be infinitely absurd if it lasted through eternity?”

Purpose has nothing to do with the length of one's existence. Some mortal who has skillz serves more purpose than some imagined immortal without skillz if you catch my meaning.

The other mistake you make is reality does not bend to what you imagine to be purposeful or meaningful.

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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:46 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
Franktalk wrote:
So your worth is measured in some R&D? In my world view there is nothing new under the sun. We come here for the experience. The morning sun warming my face. A walk in nature where I hear the sounds of the native animals. Making friends and having relationships. These are things which I value.

How many false dichotomies can you create? Why is R&D in some sort of competition with other experiences of life? A walk in nature? I spent every free minute of my youth and young adult life backpacking in the Sierras. It was my favorite activity. I can cherish friendships as well as the next person. You don't have to abandon science and man's accomplishments and accumulation of knowledge to enjoy these other areas of life.


So you are a thing with no purpose having relationships with other creatures with no purpose. I wonder how any worth can be had by two creatures without purpose except to exist? Just where does the feeling come from "favorite activity" or "cherish friendships". Where is the evidence of this feeling. Show me how to prove that you actually had those feelings. For all I know you are just splashing empty words around. I need proof and without seen evidence I have to believe you have no feelings at all. They are just made up in your head,


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:57 pm 
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spotlight wrote:
In a famous 1971 paper, “The Absurd,” Thomas Nagel argues that life’s absurdity has nothing to do with its length. If a short life is absurd, he says, a longer life would be even more absurd: “Our lives are mere instants even on a geological time scale, let alone a cosmic one; we will all be dead any minute. But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we lived forever; would not a life that is absurd if it lasts 70 years be infinitely absurd if it lasted through eternity?”

Purpose has nothing to do with the length of one's existence. Some mortal who has skillz serves more purpose than some imagined immortal without skillz if you catch my meaning.

The other mistake you make is reality does not bend to what you imagine to be purposeful or meaningful.


Do you actually hold any personal opinion? Here you are quoting a book again. It seems you are the sum total of the books you have read. Where is the analysis of why life is absurd. Do you actually think I care what some guy wrote in 1971? But it does seem that the paper made an impact on you. So let us add this to your list of beliefs, life is absurd, life has no purpose, we cease to exist at death. Yet in this view you can have cherished relationships. And of course you see no conflict at all saying these things.


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 Post subject: Re: You can enter the Kingdom of God right now.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:22 am 
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Spotlight,

Let us hold up your beliefs to the smell test and see how they do. You believe the brain is deterministic and as such has no unseen connection to a spirit. It works purely on external stimuli and chemical/electrical reactions. In your view nothing acts outside of the brain except environmental physical factors obtained by the senses. You do not believe in a soul of man or the spirit of man. This means that the feelings you get of joy, love, hate, and the rest are actually a trick of nature. A causes B and B causes C. No room in there for feelings other than deterministic responses to stimuli. So when you tell me you have cherished friendships I have to wonder why you are letting your brain fool you into thinking there is more than a deterministic machine in your head. In your world love is fake. There was no choice going on in your mind, according to you love is just some sequence of actions in the brain that can be triggered by a set of external stimuli.

You appear to be speaking out two sides of your mouth. On one hand you tell me there is nothing unseen in the brain and the brain is purely deterministic. Then on the other hand you say you experience cherished friendships. You must realize that in your world view there are no cherished friendships. I wonder why it is that once you figured out how the brain works you continue to get fooled by it. I mean it is all fake in your world view and the view of how the brain works in your eyes. Love is fake, hate is fake, cherished friendships are fake, all fake reactions to the world. Feelings are fake, they are just a way for the brain to deal with the world. We don't love our children, we are programmed to take care of them by our evolved brain. We are a slave to Darwin's idea.

Now you could tell me that all emotions are preprogrammed responses in the brain. You could tell me we are but robots, slaves to some initial conditions in this universe. Or you can explain how it is that a deterministic brain has manifested emotions beyond the deterministic machine of the brain?

I however believe I have free will. It comes from outside of the brain. I believe I can actually make a choice outside of brain chemistry or physical stimuli. I believe love is real and outside of the physical world. I choose to believe this.

Then with an open mind I view the world around me. I try and make sense of this place. I perform mind experiments dealing with the nature of eternity. I see an expanded reality that gives purpose to life. A reality where love exist and is not purely cause and effect. I can sense with my spirit the expanded reality. I can almost touch it. I desire that the Kingdom of Heaven come to the earth now. But I see the minds of men so attached to this world they stop heaven on earth. They let earthly desires rule over them. And in their mind they do not think they have a choice. For they all believe in a deterministic world.


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