Tobin wrote:No. But it is simpler than that. Jesus didn't need to die to do anything. We just killed him and attached this nonsense to his murder. The fact is we (i.e. human-beings) killed him. There is no significance to the event other than that.
I agree but I am still glad His message of how to live in peace survived.
Mittens wrote:Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—(not cursed cause he prayed in the garden)
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.(not by sweating in the garden)
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.(on the cross the blood was shed, not sweated.)
Psalm 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—(cross prophecy, not garden)
Isa 53 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.(no wounds or piercing in the garden)
Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.(The cross he endured, not the garden)
The Bible teaches the Atonement happened on the Cross, even the Book of Mormon agrees
1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
Yet Mormon leaders teach it was at the garden
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.
•BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."
•Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,
Lets liken the atonement to a 400 meter race. The race consists of everything to the start of the race to crossing of the finish line. The first 100 meters is just as important as the last 100 meters though if EPSN shows highlights of the race, they mostly are going to the last 50 meters. So the question is where did the atonement start. Not where it ended. The end always get the most attention in anything whether it be a car race or a football game, ect. LDS pay more attention to the New Testament to noticing that unique things happen in Gethsemane. It is the only place where Christ needed an angel for help. His torment was not caused by an outside force. Nobody was beating him or putting him on a cross. He suffered so much that he his sweat was bloody. Clearly something serious was going on there. LDS simply notice that both have importance. What is wrong with that idea?
Mittens wrote:Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—(not cursed cause he prayed in the garden)
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.(not by sweating in the garden)
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.(on the cross the blood was shed, not sweated.)
Psalm 22:16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—(cross prophecy, not garden)
Isa 53 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.(no wounds or piercing in the garden)
Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.(The cross he endured, not the garden)
The Bible teaches the Atonement happened on the Cross, even the Book of Mormon agrees
1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
Yet Mormon leaders teach it was at the garden
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.
•BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."
•Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,
Lets liken the atonement to a 400 meter race. The race consists of everything to the start of the race to crossing of the finish line. The first 100 meters is just as important as the last 100 meters though if EPSN shows highlights of the race, they mostly are going to the last 50 meters. So the question is where did the atonement start. Not where it ended. The end always get the most attention in anything whether it be a car race or a football game, ect. LDS pay more attention to the New Testament to noticing that unique things happen in Gethsemane. It is the only place where Christ needed an angel for help. His torment was not caused by an outside force. Nobody was beating him or putting him on a cross. He suffered so much that he his sweat was bloody. Clearly something serious was going on there. LDS simply notice that both have importance. What is wrong with that idea?
carbon dioxide wrote: Isn't that one reason people think they aren't historical?
I am sure many would hold to that. My impression is that Mittens does view the New Testament accounts to be historical. If one does believe in the New Testament, then the events of Gethsemane can be said to be just as historical as what is described when Christ was crucified.
carbon dioxide wrote: I am sure many would hold to that. My impression is that Mittens does view the New Testament accounts to be historical. If one does believe in the New Testament, then the events of Gethsemane can be said to be just as historical as what is described when Christ was crucified.
Except we know that there were witnesses to the crucifixion, while we're also told that no one would stay with Jesus in the garden, therefore he was alone. So who witnessed this to describe it?
It could be that the author, who did not live during the events any way, based the crucifixion account on eyewitnesses and completely made up the garden scene.