Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

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_Mittens
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Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _Mittens »

A Marvelous Work and a Wonder Le Grand Richards Presiding Bishop....


Moses' Testimony of the Personality of God


This also makes the experience of Moses and his associates and seventy of the elders of Israel seem so reasonable and easy to understand:


Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel.


And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (Exodus 24:9-10.)


And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.


And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.


And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. . . . (Exodus 33:9-11.)


Could any historian be expected to describe this event any more clearly than to say that the Lord and Moses talked with each other "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"? Does anyone need to be told how a man speaks to his friend? The Father and the Son spoke with Joseph Smith "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." There is only one thing that made this possible, and that is the fact that God did create man in his own image and likeness. Could any other image or likeness have been half so wonderful?

interesting how Joseph Fielding Smith admits this was Jesus


Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.



In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?



President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical



James Talmage states: “This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)



1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.



What’s interesting about all these statements is that Le Grand Richards, Gordon B. Hinckley, James Talmage, Hugh B. Brown and other leaders like Robert Hales and Jeffrey R Holland lie about is the Orthodox view of the Godhead and pin modalism to Orthodox Christianity and our belief of the Trinity.




Notice how we believe the teaching they try to say we believe is considered a heresy and is called modalism and monarchism Trinity 1X1X1=1 Mormonism 1+1+1=3



http://carm.org/heresies

•Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
•Monarchianism - God is one person.





"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370) = polytheism

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: " Monotheism

Jesus says ONE GOD in the Godhead, Joseph Smith says three . Who does Mormons believe and follow ? This is the major difference between Orthodox Christianity and Mormonism

Notice from reputable dictionaries and encyclopedias say we believe Three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE GOD [God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]


The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and (c) these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it. (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

TRINITY The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the “trinitarian formula” is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14). (from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Trinity used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias , first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2.
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person. (from Easton’s Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)





Recent examples of a Mormon leader spreading this straw man


https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...hrist?lang=eng




http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/11/th...-sent?lang=eng
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_ludwigm
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _ludwigm »

Mittens wrote: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (Exodus 24:9-10.)
Sapphire?

We didn't see anything sapphire, up to now.
Yellow? Yes. Emerald? Yes.

The only true is The Prophet Yellow Brick Road, leading to Emerald city. We have pictures and videos about it.
For example [#img] http://salidadailypost.com/wp-content/u ... orothy.jpg[/img]
And we have the proper sign post to lead. (see above!)

The video:
Follow The Prophet Yellow Brick Road...
Begin It With Three Spirals Of Helix! (as gnomes propose it!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cwCIkKFFR4 (1:00)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_ludwigm
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _ludwigm »

Apologists are welcomed:

"I could think of things
I never thunk before
And then I'd sit
And think some more
I would not be just a nothin'
My head full of stuffin'
...
If I only had a brain"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg66kwRnOpw
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_ludwigm
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _ludwigm »

by the way

The last two link of Mittens' OP don't work.
A fault of the site.
This is why I ALWAYS write a space after links, AND one character in the next line. (Most of the times at least a period.)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

There is no "misleading" occuring by LDS, only Christians and anti-mormons.

We know you believe God is One God, as 3 "persons".
We simply believe that is entirely non-Biblical.

We believe God is the Father.
We believe Christ is also God acting as the Father, such as in many Old Testament instances.
We believe all 3 are "separate BEINGS" not "persons" of the same substance which is what the Nicene Creed teaches, a.k.a. 3 in 1.
We believe they are 3 in 1 as a "GodHead", the "Office" of God, but they are still 3 beings, not one being or substance manifested as 3 persons.
That is entirely Greek Philosophy, not Biblical in any way or manner. Christ in every way managable makes clear that he is not the Father, that they are One only in spirit, he didn't say flesh/substance. The Bible also says we are or are to be One with the Father, but we all know we aren't of his/the same flesh/substance.
The only way Christ is of the "same substance" is as a literal Son of the Father. This was likely the original intent and implication of the original Nicene Trinity, but it was later further corrupted and changed due to the ambiguity. It was also likely ambiguous on purpose to satisfy the different competing views of the Trinity. Problem is, they didn't realize that it would start to be taken literally, and the key implications were lost by later generations.

Further, the Holy Ghost was clearly a separate being, but one of spirit, for he alighted himself at the Baptism of Christ in the form of a Dove.
The "separatness" of the GodHead as Beings is absolute Biblical doctrine. This "meshing" of them all is entirely non-Biblical.
They are ONLY ever "One" in the Bible when it comes to Mission, Power, Authority, Word, Spirit, etc. No where does it say they are one in the Flesh, or "substance", one being manifested as 3 persons or whatever variation people take.

Christ took on a body, because that is the nature of God, God the Father. He is spirit and matter perfected, as we are to also be.
Christ took on a body to be that "bridge", to take corrupt flesh and spirit and turn it into incorruption.
If God the Father was "spirit alone" (also another concept not taught anywhere in the Bible, it only teaches God is Spirit, just like it also says elsewhere that man is spirit, and we are to worship in spirit and truth, yet we all know we are not "only" spiritual beings) God would have ZERO need for another being or person called the "Holy Spirit". God could just do all the spiritual stuff himself.

It is not a coincidence that God has a being that bridges the gap between God and man in the Flesh (Christ) and another being that also interacts with us bridging the spiritual gap with God (the Holy Ghost). They are two exemplars of our own natures, and that of God Almighty Himself. Two natures that must become perfected as one, as the Father also is, for we are to become as He Is. PERIOD.
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _moksha »

Mittens wrote:
http://carm.org/heresies

•Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
•Monarchianism - God is one person.


You will note how CARM deliberately left Literalism off their list of heresies. This seems like an egregious oversight!!!
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_Mittens
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _Mittens »

Satanism, or elevation of Satan to the status of godhood, has been with us since the earliest days. Satan is the Enemy of God, he tempted Jesus, and he plays a prominent role in the Mormon temple rituals. Satanism is the heart of evil - imputing godhood to the chief Enemy of God. We see Satanic worship in the Bible, when the Israelites made their golden calf and called him "god." The calf was Satan. We see it in the erection of Ashterah poles and worship in "high place" and "sacred groves." The Israelites abandoned the worship of Yahweh for that of demons - the same demons ruled by Satan. And, now along come the Mormons who tell us that Satan was in the Council of the gods - the same demonic lie!

So, if Satan was at the Council of the gods, according to the cult of Mormonism, was he not a god? As we've seen here for months, the Mormons will not deny that Satan is a god, and one has said that Satan is a real and powerful god. This is what happens folks when you fall into polytheism - belief in many gods. One only has to read the Old Testament to see how YHWH hated idolatry, and Mormon polytheism is nothing more than evil idolatry raising its sick, depraved head. For instance:

“Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, tabernacled as He then was in mortal flesh, may not have remembered His preexistent state, nor the part He had taken in the great council of the Gods; while Satan, an unembodied spirit—he the disinherited, the rebellious and rejected son—seeking to tempt the Being through whom the world was created by promising Him part of what was wholly His, still may have had, as indeed he may yet have, a remembrance of those primeval scenes.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p.132)

Clearly, Talmage indicates Satan was present at the Council of the gods, and thus a "real and powerful god" in the view of Mormonism. This is the kind of sickness that runs rampant in Mormon "theological" thought.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_subgenius
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _subgenius »

Mittens wrote:Satanism, or elevation of Satan to the status of godhood, has been with us since the earliest days. Satan is the Enemy of God, he tempted Jesus, and he plays a prominent role in the Mormon temple rituals. Satanism is the heart of evil - imputing godhood to the chief Enemy of God. We see Satanic worship in the Bible, when the Israelites made their golden calf and called him "god." The calf was Satan. We see it in the erection of Ashterah poles and worship in "high place" and "sacred groves." The Israelites abandoned the worship of Yahweh for that of demons - the same demons ruled by Satan. And, now along come the Mormons who tell us that Satan was in the Council of the gods - the same demonic lie!

So, if Satan was at the Council of the gods, according to the cult of Mormonism, was he not a god? As we've seen here for months, the Mormons will not deny that Satan is a god, and one has said that Satan is a real and powerful god. This is what happens folks when you fall into polytheism - belief in many gods. One only has to read the Old Testament to see how YHWH hated idolatry, and Mormon polytheism is nothing more than evil idolatry raising its sick, depraved head. For instance:

“Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, tabernacled as He then was in mortal flesh, may not have remembered His preexistent state, nor the part He had taken in the great council of the Gods; while Satan, an unembodied spirit—he the disinherited, the rebellious and rejected son—seeking to tempt the Being through whom the world was created by promising Him part of what was wholly His, still may have had, as indeed he may yet have, a remembrance of those primeval scenes.” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p.132)

Clearly, Talmage indicates Satan was present at the Council of the gods, and thus a "real and powerful god" in the view of Mormonism. This is the kind of sickness that runs rampant in Mormon "theological" thought.


Ok, then whatis Satan? Obviously Satan is capable of having conversations with God which implies an ability to be in God's presence.
I mean I get the the whole polar opposite, enemy, etc - but that is more of who Satan is, not what Satan is.
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _The CCC »

Mittens wrote:A Marvelous Work and a Wonder Le Grand Richards Presiding Bishop....


Moses' Testimony of the Personality of God


This also makes the experience of Moses and his associates and seventy of the elders of Israel seem so reasonable and easy to understand:


Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel.


And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (Exodus 24:9-10.)


And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.


And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.


And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. . . . (Exodus 33:9-11.)


Could any historian be expected to describe this event any more clearly than to say that the Lord and Moses talked with each other "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"? Does anyone need to be told how a man speaks to his friend? The Father and the Son spoke with Joseph Smith "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." There is only one thing that made this possible, and that is the fact that God did create man in his own image and likeness. Could any other image or likeness have been half so wonderful?

interesting how Joseph Fielding Smith admits this was Jesus


Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions
Taken from the writings of Joseph Fielding Smith
Tenth President of Mormonism
A course Study for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums
1972-73

Lesson 6 page 39

It was Jesus who gave commandments to Adam after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden and who directed Enoch and Noah before the flood. It was Christ who named Abraham and made him that through his posterity all nations would be blessed. He, it was who called Moses to lead Isreal out of Egypt and who wrote with his fingers on the tables of stone. He had no body until he was born in Bethlehem.



In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?



President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical



James Talmage states: “This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)



1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.



What’s interesting about all these statements is that Le Grand Richards, Gordon B. Hinckley, James Talmage, Hugh B. Brown and other leaders like Robert Hales and Jeffrey R Holland lie about is the Orthodox view of the Godhead and pin modalism to Orthodox Christianity and our belief of the Trinity.




Notice how we believe the teaching they try to say we believe is considered a heresy and is called modalism and monarchism Trinity 1X1X1=1 Mormonism 1+1+1=3



http://carm.org/heresies

•Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
•Monarchianism - God is one person.





"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370) = polytheism

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: " Monotheism

Jesus says ONE GOD in the Godhead, Joseph Smith says three . Who does Mormons believe and follow ? This is the major difference between Orthodox Christianity and Mormonism

Notice from reputable dictionaries and encyclopedias say we believe Three separate and distinct persons represent the ONE GOD [God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]


The doctrine of the Trinity in the godhead includes the three following particulars, viz. (a) There is only one God, one divine nature; (b) but in this divine nature there is the distinction of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three (subjects or persons); and (c) these three-have equally, and in common with one another, the nature and perfection of supreme divinity. It was the custom in former times for theologians to blend their own speculations and those of others with the statement of the Bible doctrine. It is customary now to exhibit first the simple doctrine of the Bible, and afterwards, in a separate part, the speculations of the learned respecting it. (from McClintock and Strong Encyclopedia, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

TRINITY The coexistence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the unity of the Godhead (divine nature or essence). The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the “trinitarian formula” is mentioned in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) and in the benediction of the apostle Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians (2 Cor 13:14). (from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Trinity used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias , first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2.
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person. (from Easton’s Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)





Recent examples of a Mormon leader spreading this straw man


https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...hrist?lang=eng




http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/11/th...-sent?lang=eng


The Trinity and its cognates is nowhere in the Bible. The Godhead as understood by the LDS is.
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Re: Why do Mormon officials mislead ?

Post by _Mittens »

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Homoousios, God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being [ all Synonyms ]
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
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