The LDS View of Life as a Test

[_Res Ipsa]

Letting go of the "Life as Test" view was one of the best things I ever did.

Life is more meaningful as a common experience we all share.

And where will this "common experience" lead us to? Maybe into the Nirvana...? And what means "we all share" that common experience? What makes you sure we all share the same?

Without any higher challenges, without any detailled knowledge of a religious concept, we will stay stagnated, and stagnation means no hope, and no hope means the spiritial death - undoubtly the real death.

Okay - come on. No proof against it.

Why should we expect common experience to lead us anywhere? Maybe the journey is all there is, and there is no destination? And if you thought about life in this manner, instead of a test someone is giving you, why would you feel hopeless?

I'm puzzled by the concept that our life choices are limited to detailed knowledge of a religious concept and stagnation and hopelessness. It seems like there is lots of territory between those options. Why do you limit us to those two?

Maybe there is nothing beyond this life that can give this life meaning. If you knew that was true, would you just assume the fetal position and sob? Or would you do something else?

[_Themis]

Okay - come on. No proof against it.

I will only comment on this since Brad covered some of my own thoughts. I could end up believing in an infinite number of things for which we have no proof against. Like Russell's teapot.

[_passenger]

I'm writing to you first because you're from Germany (on the slight chance you may be one of my German friends) and 2nd because I'm curious about this discussion. :)

I don't see how "life is a test" is NOT a common experience.
Our bodies alone, are up against a lot of odds from the beginning.
Human experience is a common experience.
Spiritual experience may also be as quantum entanglement and Leibniz's monadology & other theories suggest.

I think we need some group thought as a base.
I use Mormon teachings as a spring board - but a lot of stubborn members use it as cement walls with barbed wire on top.

Using Mormon teachings as some kind of a spring board is a good comparison. I haven't become an LDS member yet, although baptizing was offered to me more than one time. I've been "investigating" Mormonism for many years now. I've also been in several German forums, i.e. http://www.mormonenforen.de. There were nearly uncountable visits of the Elders, and they've given a better understanding and insight of me to the faith. Unfortunately, I don't believe so much in the value of rituals and religious laws or regulations. I would look at Christianity more from a Gnostic position. And, to be honest, I generally have some doubts with regard to institutionalized priesthood.

The Christian faith has been reduced by most churches to a simple "book religion", without a big spirituality or form of transcendency. Nevertheless, the Mormons practice a more living faith than others, and i.e. the Liahona reflects that quite clearly. I've read only a few issues, but there were some impressing insights for me. I should admit they have a strong and inspired guidance by their leaders, the Apostles and the First Presidency.

Spiritual experience may also be as quantum entanglement and Leibniz's monadology & other theories suggest. - A true sentence that I would agree.

... - but a lot of stubborn members use it as cement walls with barbed wire on top. - Many people believe, with the observance of the rules everything will become good. They really oblige God to reward them with blessings and advantages. But I'm afraid it won't work that way. Maybe this is that kind of ignorance you mean. Elder Holland from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles once wrote in the Liahona (paraphrased), that no blessing of a priest can have an effect as long it's not (in harmony with) the will of God...

I'm writing to you first because you're from Germany (on the slight chance you may be one of my German friends) ... You have German friends? By the way, I live in Hamburg. As I'm afraid I don't have many friends, because I'm undoubtedly quite good at making myself unpopular, there would really only be a slight chance for that. But who knows...?

[_passenger]

I will only comment on this since Brad covered some of my own thoughts. I could end up believing in an infinite number of things for which we have no proof against. Like Russell's teapot.

In his analogy Russel illustrated, in case of religion, that the burden of proof lies upon the person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims (in the case of religion) rather than shifting that burden to others.

I think a religious doctrine should better be understood as a theory of God, like the multi dimensional super-string theory or other conceptions of the universe, its beginning and its end. Religious conceptions could be changed and adapted - unlike absolute assertions. That's one problem with a religious doctrine based on old scriptures that don't allow to switch the lane...

My personal view: why should I read an old book, if there's a new one available? I mean, why should I read the First Book of Moses, called Genesis, if I could read John Archibald Wheeler's book "A Journey into Gravity and Spacetime"... ?

[_Amore]

Using Mormon teachings as some kind of a spring board is a good comparison. I haven't become an LDS member yet, although baptizing was offered to me more than one time. I've been "investigating" Mormonism for many years now. I've also been in several German forums, i.e. http://www.mormonenforen.de. There were nearly uncountable visits of the Elders, and they've given a better understanding and insight of me to the faith. Unfortunately, I don't believe so much in the value of rituals and religious laws or regulations. I would look at Christianity more from a Gnostic position. And, to be honest, I generally have some doubts with regard to institutionalized priesthood.

The Christian faith has been reduced by most churches to a simple "book religion", without a big spirituality or form of transcendency. Nevertheless, the Mormons practice a more living faith than others, and i.e. the Liahona reflects that quite clearly. I've read only a few issues, but there were some impressing insights for me. I should admit they have a strong and inspired guidance by their leaders, the Apostles and the First Presidency.

Spiritual experience may also be as quantum entanglement and Leibniz's monadology & other theories suggest. - A true sentence that I would agree.

... - but a lot of stubborn members use it as cement walls with barbed wire on top. - Many people believe, with the observance of the rules everything will become good. They really oblige God to reward them with blessings and advantages. But I'm afraid it won't work that way. Maybe this is that kind of ignorance you mean. Elder Holland from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles once wrote in the Liahona (paraphrased), that no blessing of a priest can have an effect as long it's not (in harmony with) the will of God...

I'm writing to you first because you're from Germany (on the slight chance you may be one of my German friends) ... You have German friends? By the way, I live in Hamburg. As I'm afraid I don't have many friends, because I'm undoubtedly quite good at making myself unpopular, there would really only be a slight chance for that. But who knows...?

Thanks for explaining your ideas and searching. I can relate with you a lot!
I am amazed with your ability to communicate in a 2nd language. I'm working on Spanish - but German (or maybe Chinese) is next.
What do you mean by "Gnostic" when you mentioned, "I would look at Christianity more from a Gnostic position."
Do you mean that you consider Christ, as spirit, not person?
If so, I'd agree. Not that there wasn't a man named Jesus who lived, but that Christ was not just him, but "anointed one" who applies to anybody truly doing God's service.

I also don't completely buy the institutionalized priesthood, but I see it as functional illusions for many.
It motivates many men to be and do better than they would without that inspiration/motivation.

Regarding the leaders of the church (top leaders, not local bishops)... I acknowledge many good things they've SAID, but actions speak louder than words. They steal money from the poor and that ticks me off, having seen how about 1/7 of this world's population lives and as one who cannot help but FEEL as I imagine others are feeling.

I agree that just going by the rules is not going to "earn" one a ticket to the celestial kingdom, contrary to popular Mormon belief.
And I also agree that GOoD spirituality is in harmony with God - with mental, physical and spiritual health.
Like Carl Jung, I see no dividing line between psychology ("study of the soul") and spirituality.
I have so much to learn spiritually - not book learning, but experientially - and psychologically, but little by little.
"Wenig durch wenig" - if that makes sense translated literally.

[_deacon blues]

However, if you think of God as in "God is love" or "the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you," then it makes sense that every one of us are testing ourselves, to see how much of our potential we will realize, or how we will find meaning and hope even in seemingly hopeless situations (ie Frankl's Mans Search For Meaning).

To that end, wouldn't the ultimate test be enacting the saying from the old Humanist Manifesto of creating Heaven right here on Earth? To do so would show we have mastered our tendency to create a short, nasty, brutish, poor and solitary existence for one another.

I think Joseph Smith convinced himself that he could create a heaven on earth, by getting everyone else to do what he wanted. When I was young, I occasionally entertained similar delusions.

[_Amore]

To that end, wouldn't the ultimate test be enacting the saying from the old Humanist Manifesto of creating Heaven right here on Earth? To do so would show we have mastered our tendency to create a short, nasty, brutish, poor and solitary existence for one another.

I think Joseph Smith convinced himself that he could create a heaven on earth, by getting everyone else to do what he wanted. When I was young, I occasionally entertained similar delusions.

Let me clarify.
God is love - and love involves striving for what's best - for ourselves and for others.
It's not self-centered in a selfish, short-sighted way.
But it is self-centered in a way to honestly and courageously explore one's strengths and weaknesses, so one improves and progresses in better being able to love - through trial and error.
You get feedback - sometimes you're wrong in how you love - wrong gift, wrong word, wrong act - whatever.
And you discover - if you're looking and open to it - and adapt accordingly.

Intelligence is the "ability to adapt to change" (Hawking).
So, we are constantly being tested to see how well we adapt.

[_hagoth7]

...I use Mormon teachings as a spring board - but a lot of stubborn members use it as cement walls with barbed wire on top.

Curious statement. Would you mind elaborating what you mean by this?

[_Amore]

...I use Mormon teachings as a spring board - but a lot of stubborn members use it as cement walls with barbed wire on top.

Curious statement. Would you mind elaborating what you mean by this?

I see some Mormon teachings as good as a foundation - like those standards to not have sex before married, to not drink or smoke, to strive to read scriptures, keep a journal, FHE - and other basically good values. In some ways, those teachings saved my life in different ways.

Yet, those same teachings - especially cognitive distortions like polarized thinking, contributed to depression and suicidal thoughts.
As lonely as it's been, moving on from getting hung up on barbed wire teachings so many are stuck on, it has been very liberating to realize many of those aweful hellish thoughts & feelings I learned in church are also not true.

There's much more to life and spirituality than is taught in the church, and a lot in the church is mistaught. Still, I see enough good that I take my kids to church (in a language we're not fluent in so we get the spirit/sense of community without the cultish mental sickness).