The Two Enochs

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_Gunnar
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The Two Enochs

Post by _Gunnar »

Surely I can't be the only one who has ever noticed the following discrepancy or anomaly in Mormon Scripture and doctrine, yet I don't recall seeing any comment about it from LDS commentators and scriptorians. In the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, and in the JST is found the story of the righteous Enoch, descendant of Seth who founded a great city named after him that was so righteous that it was translated and taken up into heaven.

However, anyone familiar with the standard translations of the Bible knows that there were two Enochs. The first mentioned was the son of Cain and presumably the first of his evil line of descendants. Cain built a great city that he named after his son, Enoch, and this is the only city mentioned in the Old Testament associated with or named after anyone called Enoch.

Outside of LDS scripture, little is said of the other Enoch other than that he descended from Seth and was a righteous man who walked with God. There is not the slightest hint that this latter Enoch also founded a city named after him. Yet this other City of Enoch figures quite prominently in Mormon scripture and doctrine. It appears to me highly likely that Joseph Smith made up the whole story of this other City of Enoch since, as far as I can tell, there is not the slightest justification for or mention of this story outside of LDS scripture and doctrine. Why is that if Enoch had the impact on Man's early history claimed by LDS doctrine?

Why would any mention of the city of the unrighteous Enoch in the Old Testament have survived until modern times and not that of the righteous Enoch (if it ever actually existed)?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
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_Bazooka
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Re: The Two Enochs

Post by _Bazooka »

ENOCH
See also Zion
A prophet who led the people of the city of Zion. His ministry is discussed in both the Old Testament and the Pearl of Great Price. He was the seventh patriarch after Adam. He was the son of Jared and the father of Methuselah (Gen. 5:18–24; Luke 3:37).

Enoch was a great person and had a more significant ministry than the Bible’s brief account of him indicates. The Bible notes that he was translated (Heb. 11:5) but gives no details of his ministry. Jude 1:14 contains a quotation of a prophecy he made. Latter-day revelation explains much more of Enoch, specifically of his preaching, his city called Zion, his visions, and his prophecies (D&C 107:48–57; Moses 6–7). Zion was taken to heaven because of the righteousness of those who lived in it (Moses 7:69).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/enoch?lang=eng

Enoch (/ˈiːnək/; Hebrew: חֲנוֹךְ, Modern H̱anokh Tiberian Ḥănōḵ; Arabic: إدريس‎ ʼIdrīs) appears in the Book of Genesis and a figure in the Generations of Adam. Enoch is the son of Jared (Gen 5:19-21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him", (Gen 5:22-29). This Enoch is not to be confused with Cain's son Enoch (Gen 4:17) who's lineage also contains the name Lamech the same name of Noah's father but not referring to the same man. The Christian New Testament has three references to Enoch from the lineage of Seth (Luke 3:37, Hebrews 11: 5, Epistle of Jude 1:14–15).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)

I would suggest that Mormonism doesn't treat them as one and the same, rather it simply ignores the City of (son of Cain) Enoch in favour of talking about the City (son of Jared) Enoch.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Gunnar
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Re: The Two Enochs

Post by _Gunnar »

Bazooka wrote:
ENOCH
See also Zion
A prophet who led the people of the city of Zion. His ministry is discussed in both the Old Testament and the Pearl of Great Price. He was the seventh patriarch after Adam. He was the son of Jared and the father of Methuselah (Gen. 5:18–24; Luke 3:37).

Enoch was a great person and had a more significant ministry than the Bible’s brief account of him indicates. The Bible notes that he was translated (Heb. 11:5) but gives no details of his ministry. Jude 1:14 contains a quotation of a prophecy he made. Latter-day revelation explains much more of Enoch, specifically of his preaching, his city called Zion, his visions, and his prophecies (D&C 107:48–57; Moses 6–7). Zion was taken to heaven because of the righteousness of those who lived in it (Moses 7:69).

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/enoch?lang=eng

Enoch (/ˈiːnək/; Hebrew: חֲנוֹךְ, Modern H̱anokh Tiberian Ḥănōḵ; Arabic: إدريس‎ ʼIdrīs) appears in the Book of Genesis and a figure in the Generations of Adam. Enoch is the son of Jared (Gen 5:19-21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him", (Gen 5:22-29). This Enoch is not to be confused with Cain's son Enoch (Gen 4:17) who's lineage also contains the name Lamech the same name of Noah's father but not referring to the same man. The Christian New Testament has three references to Enoch from the lineage of Seth (Luke 3:37, Hebrews 11: 5, Epistle of Jude 1:14–15).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)

I would suggest that Mormonism doesn't treat them as one and the same, rather it simply ignores the City of (son of Cain) Enoch in favour of talking about the City (son of Jared) Enoch.

Hi Bazooka!

I apologize for not making myself clear enough. I didn't believe for a second, or mean to suggest that Mormonism treats the two Enochs as one and the same. I was already familiar with the New Testament references to Enoch, and had already googled and found the Wikipedia reference to Enoch before writing my OP. None of these references gives any hint or suggestion that the second Enoch also founded a city, except the Wikipedia reference, and for that it cites only LDS sources such as the Book of Moses apparently invented by Joseph Smith. So, I still don't know of any reference to Enoch, the son of Jared and descendant of Seth, having built a righteous city (also known as Zion) other than Mormon Scriptures that only Mormons accept as canonical. Do you know of any sources other than Mormon sources that mention any such thing? I think that Joseph Smith got the idea of inventing the story of the second Enoch's city from reading the Old Testament's reference to the first Enoch's city. I doubt he actually confused the two Enochs with each other.

Unless one accepts the JST (of which the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price is basically an excerpt) as canonical, which only the LDS Church and spinoffs from it do (as far as I know), it is my understanding that the Old Testament references to Zion refer only to the City of Jerusalem.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_moksha
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Re: The Two Enochs

Post by _moksha »

This might help (or be totally off-base).

Metatron (Hebrew מטטרון) or Mattatron (a differentiation of Metatron[1]) is an archangel in Judaism and in Christian folklore. According to Jewish medieval apocrypha, he is Enoch, ancestor of Noah, transformed into an angel. There are no references to Metatron as an angel in the Jewish Tanakh or Christian scriptures (Old and New Testament); however, Genesis 5:24 is often cited as evidence of Enoch's bodily ascension into heaven —"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."[2] Although he is mentioned in a few brief passages in the Talmud, Metatron appears primarily in medieval Jewish mystical texts and other post-scriptural esoteric sources, such as the Books of Enoch:1 Enoch: Book of Parables, 2 Enoch, and 3 Enoch. In Rabbinic tradition, he is the highest of the angels and serves as the celestial scribe.[3]


Didn't Joseph Smith have a Hebrew tutor? Enoch transformed into an angel, his city moved to the cloud district perhaps.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Gunnar
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Re: The Two Enochs

Post by _Gunnar »

moksha wrote:This might help (or be totally off-base).

Metatron (Hebrew מטטרון) or Mattatron (a differentiation of Metatron[1]) is an archangel in Judaism and in Christian folklore. According to Jewish medieval apocrypha, he is Enoch, ancestor of Noah, transformed into an angel. There are no references to Metatron as an angel in the Jewish Tanakh or Christian scriptures (Old and New Testament); however, Genesis 5:24 is often cited as evidence of Enoch's bodily ascension into heaven —"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."[2] Although he is mentioned in a few brief passages in the Talmud, Metatron appears primarily in medieval Jewish mystical texts and other post-scriptural esoteric sources, such as the Books of Enoch:1 Enoch: Book of Parables, 2 Enoch, and 3 Enoch. In Rabbinic tradition, he is the highest of the angels and serves as the celestial scribe.[3]


Didn't Joseph Smith have a Hebrew tutor? Enoch transformed into an angel, his city moved to the cloud district perhaps.

Yes, Joseph Smith did have a Hebrew tutor and I understand there is considerable reference in Jewish mystical texts and post scriptural sources to Enoch, and even about Enoch being taken up to heaven without experiencing death. Nevertheless, the story of Enoch having established a city that was also taken up to heaven is not found in any non-LDS source I have ever heard about. I suppose it is possible that one of these mystical texts Smith may have learned about from his Hebrew tutor told such a story, and that he got the idea from that, but even so, does anyone regard these mystical texts as canonical scripture?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
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