see the signature of an old (2007.10.18 12:07) member: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=989...

and viewtopic.php?p=998598#p998598 as well...

Yes, I remember him fondly.

Muksutov, about research, I started college in 1967 as a nonbeliever in God but interested in the varieties of religious experience. I developed a strong preference for meditative experience rather than chemical but explored the chemical possibilities as well.I have had enough interest in world religious experience to have read some about its role in shamanistic activity.In that realm sweat lodge without drugs is more interesting to me.

However for the book of revelations we are both stuck with our own assessment of the writing style. I see contemplated reworking of dream and literary imagery with a strong intended meaning. It is easy to get lost in the forest because of the trees in the book. Expecting some one to one correspondence from image to real event is to my mind a futile undertaking. Such correspondence does not exist and to my mind is not intended. It should be open to multiple readings so I am unconcerned and uninterested in disagreement over those.

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Your quote about the experiment of LSD in a religious context is interesting. It points out how much what happens with the substance is a result of what is in the individuals mind,what they are lead to expect, directed to during the experience, context and environment. This fits my expectation that such experiences may bring out religious imagery but are likely not the source.

It reminds me of a vivid song line ( Joni Mitchell)
I saw all the bombers
flying shotgun in the sky
were turning into butterflies.

I think this is put together to suggest the sort of thing in LSD experience. It makes that suggestion to my mind. I also think it was more likely created with regular imagination wishing to express an idea with the words fashioned to suggest LSD experience for immediacy.

I attend a physical Bible church close to where I reside. Anyone healthy enough to go to an area church should for their own sake. I do not donate money to TELEvangelists; however, that might be the only sort of church some individuals are familiar with. To those which much is given, much will be expected...

So rich preachers aren't a problem for you?

Revelation 10:1-11

And I observed another mighty angel descending out of the heaven shrouded in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head. His is face was like the sun, his legs like columns of fire.

And he held a little scroll lying open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot upon the land,

and shouted in a voice as loud as a lion's roar. And upon his shout, 7 thunderclaps resounded with voices that spoke.

When these 7 thunderclaps spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say,

“Package up the things the 7 thunderclaps revealed, do not record them!”

Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and land lifted his right heavenward

and swore by the One who lives forever and eternally, who created heaven and everything it, earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no additional delay;

Quite the contrary, in the days following the sound the 7th angel when he blasts his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to a finalization, the Good News as He proclaimed it to His servants the prophets.”

Next the voice which I had heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the scroll lying open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land!”

So I went over to the angel and asked him to hand me the little scroll; and he said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be honey sweet.”

I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and consumed it; and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; but after I had swallowed it, my stomach turned sour.

Then I was told, “You must prophesy once again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And I saw another strong messenger coming down out of the heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow upon the head, and his face as the
sun, and his feet as pillars of fire,

2 and he had in his hand a little scroll opened, and he did place his right foot upon the sea, and the left upon the land,

3 and he cried with a great voice, as a lion doth roar, and when he cried, speak out did the seven thunders their voices;

4 and when the seven thunders spake their voices, I was about to write, and I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Seal the things that the seven thunders spake,' and, `Thou mayest not write these things.'

5 And the messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, did lift up his hand to the heaven,

6 and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet,

7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

8 And the voice that I heard out of the heaven is again speaking with me, and saying, `Go, take the little scroll that is open in the hand of the messenger who hath been standing upon the sea, and upon the land:'

9 and I went away unto the messenger, saying to him, `Give me the little scroll;' and he saith to me, `Take, and eat it up, and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet -- as honey.'

10 And I took the little scroll out of the hand of the messenger, and did eat it up, and it was in my mouth as honey -- sweet, and when I did eat it -- my belly was made bitter;

11 and he saith to me, `It behoveth thee again to prophesy about peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings -- many.'

Are the likes of Margaret Sanger and Madalyn Murray O'Hair a problem for you?

So, Nipper, are you going to post a translation of what all these symbols and such mean or do we get to just make up anything we want?

Great memories and Joni Mitchell was an early muse of mine. I never had any spiritual experiences on acid. Only existential dread, obsessive thinking, mood swings, some simple hallucinations. During my teens I *did* have two mystical/spiritual/peak experiences. They both took place outdoors and lasted less than a minute but were incredibly intense and memorable.

Maksutov, my sympathy. I am glad my experience with LSD is relatively limited. The first few times I experienced something I believed was spiritually or mentally expanded experience. I was willing to nurture some hope that it was a step of enlightenment. In retrospect to my understanding even the best possibilities with it are unstable and temporary. I then had an experience with LSD that was more chaotic which though not really bad during the chaos started a seriously bad experience. The next day I started having unfocused fear as if the world was falling apart around me. I struggled with white knuckles to get through the day for weeks. I felt a little poorly put together for months afterword. It left me no doubt I had no wish to ever try such again.

The chemical to my understanding alters ones internal thought processing so the filters go down. That may allow different thoughts realization or just stuff. ("is this love, or just confusion?")

I have had experiences ,contemplation, hiking or just being in the outdoors which for me have been better and more lasting in their positive effects.

The Holy spirit will reveal the full understand to the proper participants at just the right moment.

Except all those times when it doesn't. See: Atrocities, Religious

Are you claiming Jesus to be at the center of such atrocities or individuals seeking power for their personal gain? Many things happen that are wrong when people lose sight of Christ and focus on either themselves or a leader. Were Muslims seeking to persuade Christians or annihilate them throughout Palestine and Constantinople? What of the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Was Christ the center of focus or fear? And of course we have the Inquisitions ---- was Christ the benefactor or the authority of the Pope? And now we face the atrocities of misapplication of Laws to service a select few and protect their lifestyles --- where is Christ honored in that? One could go on and on regarding the mass slaughter of blacks by blacks in Africa, where Christ was clearly not the focus.

Jesus--and other religious figures--are exploited as sock puppets for a particular individual's cause, country, tribe, whatever. Yes, "Christ" was at the "center" of genocide in the thinking of some people. Murdering six million Jews partly because they were "Christkillers" is an example. For all the reforms that Luther started, he was a vicious antiSemite and bears some responsibility for the holocaust...and yes, he acted in the name of Jesus. Go to Northern Ireland and tell me about Jesus. And I'm not just picking on Jesus. You will find excuses for violence even among Buddhists and Hindus. In every population of humans you find a percentage of awful folks. That's one of the major challenges for society. It doesn't help when bad people hide behind institutions and claims of divine inspiration.

Christ was hung on a Roman/Latin/Italian cross and not a Jewish one. Luther hated religious stupidity. He could not comprehend how Jews could continue living by tradition and deny God's one and only Son. In this Luther should have been more sympathetic. It doesn't help society when citizens regard the worship of GOD "religion" and the craving of everything else as purely the pursuit of happiness or patriotic rhetoric...
Christ was not at the center ------ opinion was.

Revelation 11:1-19

I was handed a measuring rod like a stick and told, “Get up, and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and number the people worshipping there!

However the court outside the Temple, exclude (don’t measure it) because it has been allotted to the gentiles, and they will trample about the holy city for 42 months.

Also I will extend power to my 2 witnesses (possibly Elijah and Enoch); and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”

These are the 2 olive trees and the 2 menorahs standing before the Lord of the earth.

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and consumes their enemies — yes, that will be how such will die.

The witnesses have the authority cause rain to cease during the period of their prophesying; also they have the authority to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague for as often as they wish.

When they finish witnessing, the beast coming up out of the Abyss will attack them, overcome them and kill them.

And their dead bodies will lie in the main street of the great city whose name, to reflect its spiritual condition, is referred to as “Sodom” and “Egypt” the same city where their Lord was executed on a tree.

Some from the various nations, tribes, languages and peoples will observe their bodies for 3.5 days and do not permit the corpses to be placed in a tomb.

The people living across the Land rejoice over them, they celebrate and send each other gifts, because these 2 prophets upset them so much.

But after the 3 1/2 days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who observed them.

Then these 2 heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Get up here!” And they assended into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies observed them.

In that hour there was a horrific earthquake, and a 10th of the city collapsed. 7000 people were killed in the quake, and the rest were awestruck and gave glory to the God of heaven.

With the 2nd misery passed --- note, the 3rd misery arrives quickly

The 7th angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Messiah, and He will rule forever and eternally!”

The 24 elders sitting on their thrones in God’s presence fell on their faces and worshipped God,

saying, “We thank you, Lord, God of heaven’s armies, the One who is and was. You have taken your power and have begun to rule.

The gentiles raged. But now Your rage has arrived, the moment for the dead to be judged, the moment for rewarding your servants the prophets and your holy people, those who stand in awe of Your name, both small and great. It is also the moment for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the Ark of the Covenant was seen in His Temple; and there were lightning flashes, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake and violent hail.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;

3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;

4 these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;

5 and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.

6 These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.

7 `And when they may finish their testimony, the beast that is coming up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them,

8 and their dead bodies [are] upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)

9 and they shall behold -- they of the peoples, and tribes, and tongues, and nations -- their dead bodies three days and a half, and their dead bodies they shall not suffer to be put into tombs,

10 and those dwelling upon the land shall rejoice over them, and shall make merry, and gifts they shall send to one another, because these -- the two prophets -- did torment those dwelling upon the land.'

11 And after the three days and a half, a spirit of life from God did enter into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them,

12 and they heard a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, `Come up hither;' and they went up to the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them;

13 and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men -- seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

14 The second wo did go forth, lo, the third wo doth come quickly.

15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

16 and the twenty and four elders, who before God are sitting upon their thrones, did fall upon their faces, and did bow before God,

17 saying, `We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art, and who wast, and who art coming, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and didst reign;

18 and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'

19 And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Jesus is never where he needs to be, because he's dead. What people are describing as contact with a holy ghost/spirit are their own imaginations, just as in the practice of spiritualists with their seances. That's why each has their own understanding and their own religion and why they fail objective tests (which they usually try to avoid anyway). They can say they're talking to Jesus, but you have to take their word for it. You can pretend that they're experiencing the same thing, but you don't know. Just like you don't know if the Bible was translated correctly. You are relying on other people's understanding combined with your own will to believe.

The study of the scriptures is a literary effort. It relates to a literary universe with its relatively small subset of perspectives and concerns. The real universe, if you look up from your book with eyes open and brain engaged, is much greater than your book describes. That is why many of us have not remained within its pages: we have outgrown it.

The Universe is far --- far greater than any science book ever described it. And yet it is only a mere shadow of GOD its Creator. How much you are in danger of missing out on.

Revelation 12:1-17

Now a great sign was observed in heaven — a woman clothed with the sun, under her feet the moon, and on her head a crown of 12 stars.

She was pregnant and about to give birth, and she screamed with labor pains.

Another sign was observed in heaven there was a great red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, and on his heads were 7 royal crowns.

Its tail swept 1/3 of the stars out of heaven and threw them down to the earth. It stood in front of the woman about to give birth, so that it might consume the child the moment it was born.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, the one who will rule all the nations with a staff of iron. But her child was caught up to God and His throne;

and she fled into the desert, where she has a place prepared by God so that she can be cared for 1,260 days.

Next there was a battle in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

But it was not mighty enough to win, so that there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

The great dragon was tossed out, that ancient serpent, also known as the Devil and The Adversary, the deceiver of the entire world. He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come God’s victory, power and kingship, and the authority of his Messiah; since the Accuser of our brethren, who accuses them day and night before God, has been deposed!

They defeated him because of the Lamb’s blood and because of the message of their witness. Even when facing death they did not choose life.

Therefore, rejoice, heaven and you who reside there! But misery to you, land and sea, for the Adversary has come down to you, and he is miffed, because he realizes that his time is short!”

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where she is taken care of for a season and two seasons and half a season, away from the serpent’s presence.

The serpent spewed water like a river out of its mouth after the woman, in order to sweep her away in the flood;

however, the land came to her rescue. It opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon had spewed forth. The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God’s commands and bear witness to Jesus.

Then the dragon stood on the seashore.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,

2 and being with child she doth cry out, travailing and pained to bring forth.

3 And there was seen another sign in the heaven, and, lo, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his head seven diadems,

4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth; and the dragon did stand before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour;

5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,

6 and the woman did flee to the wilderness, where she hath a place made ready from God, that there they may nourish her -- days a thousand, two hundred, sixty.

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;

9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

11 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life -- unto death;

12 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued the woman who did bring forth the male,

14 and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent;

15 and the serpent did cast forth after the woman, out of his mouth, water as a river, that he may cause her to be carried away by the river,

16 and the land did help the woman, and the land did open its mouth and did swallow up the river, that the dragon did cast forth out of his mouth;

17 and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:1-18

And I stood upon the seashore, and I observed coming out of the sea a beast, having 7 heads and ten horns, and upon its horns 10 crowns, with blasphemous names upon it heads.

The beast which I saw was similar to a leopard, but with feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. To it the dragon gave its power, its throne and great authority.

One of the heads of the beast appeared to have received a fatal wound, but this wound was healed, and the whole earth followed the beast in amazement.

They worshipped the dragon, because he had given his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, “Who else is like this? Who can fight against it?”

The beast was given a mouth speaking arrogant blasphemies; and it was given authority to act for 42 months.

So it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to insult both His name and Glory, and those living in heaven;

it was allowed to war against God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the LAMB's Book of Life. This is Lamb who was to be slaughtered before the world was founded.

Those who have ears, let them listen!

“If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he goes! If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he is to be killed!” This is when God’s holy people must persevere and trust!

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. It had 2 horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence; and it causes earth and its inhabitants to worship the first beast, the one whose fatal wound had been healed.

It performs great miracles, even causing fire to come down from heaven onto the earth as people watch.

It deceives the people living on earth by the miracles it is allowed to perform in the presence of the beast, and it tells them to make an image honoring the beast that was struck by the sword but came alive again.

It was allowed to put breath into the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could even speak; and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be executed.

Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead

preventing anyone from buying or selling unless he possesses the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

This is where wisdom is needed; those who understand should count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person, and its number is 666.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking,

2 and the beast that I saw was like to a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion, and the dragon did give to it his power, and his throne, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,

4 and they did bow before the dragon who did give authority to the beast, and they did bow before the beast, saying, `Who [is] like to the beast? who is able to war with it?'

5 And there was given to it a mouth speaking great things, and evil-speakings, and there was given to it authority to make war forty-two months,

6 and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,

7 and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.

8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

9 if any one hath an ear -- let him hear:

10 if any one a captivity doth gather, into captivity he doth go away; if any one by sword doth kill, it behoveth him by sword to be killed; here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the land, and it had two horns, like a lamb, and it was speaking as a dragon,

12 and all the authority of the first beast doth it do before it, and it maketh the land and those dwelling in it that they shall bow before the first beast, whose deadly stroke was healed,

13 and it doth great signs, that fire also it may make to come down from the heaven to the earth before men,

14 and it leadeth astray those dwelling on the land, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the beast that hath the stroke of the sword and did live,

15 and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed.

16 And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may give to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads,

17 and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number [is] 666.