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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:41 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Claims to know what is and is not inerrant or what God says or does not say by imperfect and limited people are only are accurate as the claimant.

Says who? :biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:44 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Amore wrote:
You are putting fallible human beings writings up on pedestals as if they were infallible gods.

“Thou shalt have no other gods” - 1st of the basics. Why? Because no matter how ancient, revered, popular or canonized, all human beings are fallible. And really, scriptures or any other idol is not God him/her self, but often symbolize God so so much that they forget God & focus on that which was only meant as a fallible sign to POINT to God.


The Bible says "Thou shalt have no other gods." However, according to you the Bible was written by man and so is fallible ----- therefore according to you since the Bible is nothing but errors, the verse you quoted is worthless because it was written by man and man makes mistakes and so doesn't have a clue what God has to say regarding other gods...

Now, since I believe the Bible is GOD's words written down by man, I can accept that by other gods, the one true GOD of the Bible is referring to other gods and not what HE himself dictated for our benefit!

Nice try, but if you take the bible to be of God, then you accept that 1st basic, lower commandment to not have other gods before God, which includes the bible as an idol/god.

Personally, I believe there are truths and lies in the bible, goodness and evil, so as with anything, I sort through it to “find the pearl in the dumpster.”

I don’t mean to be rude - just speaking from my mind and heart. Life is too short to contaminate it with false gods. The bible is huge! I try to focus on just those scriptures that help me live better. Reading biblical stories of war and incest are like watching the 5:00 bad news - not really helpful... and focusing on negative is not of God, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:18 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:
This ultimately just makes up numbers to reach the assumed conclusion (i.e. the Bible can't be wrong).

I reckon a bit of begging the claim dressing helps make a circular reasoning salad more palatable.
You make up excuses to not believe the Bible. So be it. :ugeek:

An honest witness does not deceive...

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
huckelberry wrote:

I believe the Bible is what God wants it to be. It is fulfilling the mission God has given it.


About a year ago my brain became dislodged from the mindset that my traditional beliefs were inevitably true and axiomatic. It has been a jarring yet rewarding transition. With that as context, now I just can't seem to find a reason to weight the Bible with cosmological importance. Clearly human beings yield high social benefit through systems of belief, thus holy books can be completely explained as evolutionary advantageous to peoples, nothing more than that.

meadowchik, It would seem reasonable I think that if something is of evolutionary advantage it would also be of individual personal advantage. I wonder if there is any possible cosmological meaning something could have that would be larger than the observation that it has this sort of life and death evolutionary advantage?

Perhaps you mean does it prove there is life after death? I do not see any proof of that possible untill our life ends. The only thing we can really deal with is whether the Bible is advantageous to our actual living.

It does serve as reminder of the bad news about our existence which we may wish to hide from. (war ,evil , disaster struggle,the difficulty of maintaining good relationships with people we need to love etc)

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If evolution is how humans have come into existence then it reflects the most basic order of reality. It seems wise to pay it close attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
You make up excuses to not believe the Bible. So be it. :ugeek:

An honest witness does not deceive...

I believe your self deception is causing you to reject the facts that the Bible presents. An honest witness doesn't always tell you everything you wish to know on your terms. :ugeek:


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:14 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
meadowchik, It would seem reasonable I think that if something is of evolutionary advantage it would also be of individual personal advantage. I wonder if there is any possible cosmological meaning something could have that would be larger than the observation that it has this sort of life and death evolutionary advantage?

Perhaps you mean does it prove there is life after death? I do not see any proof of that possible untill our life ends. The only thing we can really deal with is whether the Bible is advantageous to our actual living.

It does serve as reminder of the bad news about our existence which we may wish to hide from. (war ,evil , disaster struggle,the difficulty of maintaining good relationships with people we need to love etc)

//////
If evolution is how humans have come into existence then it reflects the most basic order of reality. It seems wise to pay it close attention.


Recognizing the power of belief itself, regardless of what it actually is, is indeed paying close attention. That imo is what reflects basic reality: humans are conscious and social and tend to want to believe something together and tend to be more productive as a group when they do believe something together.

So, one can appreciate the value of Holy Books without holding any of them up as inerrant or divine. That's a fundamental and unjustified jump.

And they wouldn't be the only thing that at one time or circumstances was/is advantageous for the group. At different times and circumstances, slavery, incest, cannibalism and any number of other harmful things proved to be advantageous to some groups.

I tend to seek out beliefs or structures with integrity, which rely on more than loyalty for loyalty's sake. Groups that share common values where every person is accountable, and groups where people can leave with their dignity intact are imo more worthy of regard.

I am wary of relying on group membership at all, but ultimately some level of interdependence is unavoidable in human life and in many ways can make life more fulfilling. So, to get even more local and individual than group structure, I regard any belief based on its results if universally applied. The Golden Rule, for example, is simple but vastly applicable.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:14 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:
An honest witness does not deceive...

I believe your self deception is causing you to reject the facts that the Bible presents. An honest witness doesn't always tell you everything you wish to know on your terms. :ugeek:

Would an honest witness make up numbers to fit a preformed conclusion?

Asking for a friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
meadowchik, It would seem reasonable I think that if something is of evolutionary advantage it would also be of individual personal advantage. I wonder if there is any possible cosmological meaning something could have that would be larger than the observation that it has this sort of life and death evolutionary advantage?


Recognizing the power of belief itself, regardless of what it actually is, is indeed paying close attention. That imo is what reflects basic reality: humans are conscious and social and tend to want to believe something together and tend to be more productive as a group when they do believe something together.

So, one can appreciate the value of Holy Books without holding any of them up as inerrant or divine. That's a fundamental and unjustified jump.

And they wouldn't be the only thing that at one time or circumstances was/is advantageous for the group. At different times and circumstances, slavery, incest, cannibalism and any number of other harmful things proved to be advantageous to some groups.

I tend to seek out beliefs or structures with integrity, which rely on more than loyalty for loyalty's sake. Groups that share common values where every person is accountable, and groups where people can leave with their dignity intact are imo more worthy of regard.

I am wary of relying on group membership at all, but ultimately some level of interdependence is unavoidable in human life and in many ways can make life more fulfilling. So, to get even more local and individual than group structure, I regard any belief based on its results if universally applied. The Golden Rule, for example, is simple but vastly applicable.

Meadowchik,
I suppose in general belief and group loyalty have some evolutionary advantage. I see those as limited values however. I am against all unthinking belief and loyalty. They carry destructive baggage. They are a bit like those more extreme examples of ills that have temporary value which you mention. All over the world the past has people using cannibalism for social power and useful protein source. However across the world people have learned that the disadvantage incurred of neighbors who hate you and will not trade with you because the don't want to be dinner are a serious burden to learning wealth and cultural expansion. Those area that had difficulty leaving cannibalism remained poor and isolated while the rest of the world learned trade and exchange of ideas and technology to their great benefit.

I think it is a serious evolutionary advantage for groups to leave beliefs and loyalties that share characteristics with those short term destructive advantageous strategies you mention.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:18 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Meadowchik,
I suppose in general belief and group loyalty have some evolutionary advantage. I see those as limited values however. I am against all unthinking belief and loyalty. They carry destructive baggage. They are a bit like those more extreme examples of ills that have temporary value which you mention. All over the world the past has people using cannibalism for social power and useful protein source. However across the world people have learned that the disadvantage incurred of neighbors who hate you and will not trade with you because the don't want to be dinner are a serious burden to learning wealth and cultural expansion. Those area that had difficulty leaving cannibalism remained poor and isolated while the rest of the world learned trade and exchange of ideas and technology to their great benefit.

I think it is a serious evolutionary advantage for groups to leave beliefs and loyalties that share characteristics with those short term destructive advantageous strategies you mention.


I agree. I think that the very tightly cohesive nature of Mormonism was a strength but is becoming more of a weakness. The same social controls which may have helped accumulate and target influence is now wrecking families and healthier alternatives.

IMO one of the gauges these days for a healthy group is one which allows members to leave with dignity intact.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:39 am 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I believe your self deception is causing you to reject the facts that the Bible presents. An honest witness doesn't always tell you everything you wish to know on your terms. :ugeek:

Would an honest witness make up numbers to fit a preformed conclusion?

Asking for a friend.
What numbers were made up?


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:56 am 
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!


Last edited by LittleNipper on Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 am 
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Amore wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:

The Bible says "Thou shalt have no other gods." However, according to you the Bible was written by man and so is fallible ----- therefore according to you since the Bible is nothing but errors, the verse you quoted is worthless because it was written by man and man makes mistakes and so doesn't have a clue what God has to say regarding other gods...

Now, since I believe the Bible is GOD's words written down by man, I can accept that by other gods, the one true GOD of the Bible is referring to other gods and not what HE himself dictated for our benefit!

Nice try, but if you take the bible to be of God, then you accept that 1st basic, lower commandment to not have other gods before God, which includes the bible as an idol/god.

Personally, I believe there are truths and lies in the bible, goodness and evil, so as with anything, I sort through it to “find the pearl in the dumpster.”

I don’t mean to be rude - just speaking from my mind and heart. Life is too short to contaminate it with false gods. The bible is huge! I try to focus on just those scriptures that help me live better. Reading biblical stories of war and incest are like watching the 5:00 bad news - not really helpful... and focusing on negative is not of God, IMO.

You maybe mixing up the Book of Mormon with the Word of God. The Bible reads, "Thy WORD is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." I believe in what GOD says and what GOD says is revealed in HIS WORD. One cannot either understand GOD or believe in HIM unless one willingly accepts what HE says in HIS WORD. There is no way of knowing about the Creator, the Christ, and Savior unless one reads HIS WORD. The Bible exposes the TRUE nature of man. Man is corrupt. Man cannot save himself. Man is worthy of only death and eternal separation from GOD. But GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only SON, that whosoever believes in HIM will not perish but possess eternal life.

If anyone has an idol, you may just wish to take a look at Joseph Smith and the presiding Mormon prophets. I can imagine no further misplaced idolatry beyond them! They fully represent taking one's eyes off the Bible (GOD's inerrant WORD) and listening to what they claim to reveal!


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:40 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:



"Thy WORD is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." I believe in what GOD says and what GOD says is revealed in HIS WORD. .....
If anyone has an idol, you may just wish to take a look at Joseph Smith and the presiding Mormon prophets. I can imagine no further misplaced idolatry beyond them! ....


Little Nipper, Some have suggested that Joseph Smith inc. were influenced by evil spirits in creating their revelations. That possibility brings up a Biblical law, "Thou shalt not suffer the witch to live." How do you choose to relate to that piece of what you refer to as inerrant word of God?

I understand that there are ways of putting understanding of the Bible together to consider that verse inactive at this time. It is a possible understanding but one which is not clear or established by any authority. People both Protestant and Catholic have executed a large number of suspected witches in centuries past. This happened particularly after the reformation when people decided they had to take more seriously the inerrant word of God.

I bring this up to point out that the Reformation also introduced terrible wars over religious interpretation.

It is an error of the Bible to be so unclear as to create that much confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:46 am 
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I find no way to understand Christianity to be true but by considering Jesus Christ to be the only inerrant word of God.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:07 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:



"Thy WORD is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." I believe in what GOD says and what GOD says is revealed in HIS WORD. .....
If anyone has an idol, you may just wish to take a look at Joseph Smith and the presiding Mormon prophets. I can imagine no further misplaced idolatry beyond them! ....


Little Nipper, Some have suggested that Joseph Smith inc. were influenced by evil spirits in creating their revelations. That possibility brings up a Biblical law, "Thou shalt not suffer the witch to live." How do you choose to relate to that piece of what you refer to as inerrant word of God?

I understand that there are ways of putting understanding of the Bible together to consider that verse inactive at this time. It is a possible understanding but one which is not clear or established by any authority. People both Protestant and Catholic have executed a large number of suspected witches in centuries past. This happened particularly after the reformation when people decided they had to take more seriously the inerrant word of God.

I bring this up to point out that the Reformation also introduced terrible wars over religious interpretation.

It is an error of the Bible to be so unclear as to create that much confusion.


The wars of the Reformation concerned power/control and it was the opinion of the Roman Catholic church that IT was in charge of Biblical interpretation. It was also the prevailing misconception of that institution that parishioners should not be allowed to read the Bible on their own. It was God's gift of the printing press that allowed more and more people the opportunity to study the Bible and come to their own conclusions as to the correctness concerning Roman Catholicism. Inerrancy was not the issue, it was DOCTRINE which had TRADITIONAL Papist support but no biblical support. Among these were the following: TRANSUBSTANTIATION, the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION of MARY, INDULGENCES, PURGATORY, PRIESTHOOD CELIBACY, LIMBO, QUEEN of HEAVEN, PERPETUAL VIRGINITY of MARY, PRAYERS directed to SAINTS and EXCOMMUNICATION.

There is nothing unclear regarding SALVATION and who the SAVIOR is and who one must trust. And the simple fact is that Christians are not to trust anyone else's interpretation. They are to beseech GOD through the Holy Spirit and prayerfully regard the learned study of others, but they should in fact study the Bible for themselves and not rest on the sayso of others. :ugeek:


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:06 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:


There is nothing unclear regarding SALVATION and who the SAVIOR is and who one must trust. And the simple fact is that Christians are not to trust anyone else's interpretation. They are to beseech GOD through the Holy Spirit and prayerfully regard the learned study of others, but they should in fact study the Bible for themselves and not rest on the sayso of others. :ugeek:

Little Nipper, I am afraid we will have to find ourselves in agreement on your above statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:01 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Would an honest witness make up numbers to fit a preformed conclusion?

Asking for a friend.
What numbers were made up?

Is that a yes, or a no?

To answer your question though; the rim size, flaring, vessel thickness and overall angle.

I think one of my favorite things about the link (that was shared as evidence for biblical inerrancy) is that while bludgeoning the Bible in order to make it fit with the numbers, it ends up claiming that the bible contains a copyist error in 2 Chronicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:


There is nothing unclear regarding SALVATION and who the SAVIOR is and who one must trust. And the simple fact is that Christians are not to trust anyone else's interpretation. They are to beseech GOD through the Holy Spirit and prayerfully regard the learned study of others, but they should in fact study the Bible for themselves and not rest on the sayso of others. :ugeek:

Little Nipper, I am afraid we will have to find ourselves in agreement on your above statement.


Why are you afraid? Fear is what Christ came to eliminate!


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
What numbers were made up?

Is that a yes, or a no?

To answer your question though; the rim size, flaring, vessel thickness and overall angle.

I think one of my favorite things about the link (that was shared as evidence for biblical inerrancy) is that while bludgeoning the Bible in order to make it fit with the numbers, it ends up claiming that the bible contains a copyist error in 2 Chronicles.


I see it for what it is ---- a very profound illustration of the detail contained within the Bible that is often overlooked or ignored...

How many stalls of horses did Solomon have, 4,000 or 40,000?
1 Kings 4:26 and 2 Chronicles 9:25

40,000 (1 Kings 4:26) - "And Solomon had 40,000 stalls of horses for his chariots, and 12,000 horsemen."
4,000 (2 Chron. 9:25) - "Now Solomon had 4,000 stalls for horses and chariots and 12,000 horsemen, and he stationed them in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem."
There are two possible explanations for this discrepancy. 1) a copyist error. 2) the difference is due to time; that is, one account is at the beginning of Solomon's reign (1 Kings 4:26), and the other at the end (2 Chron. 9:25).

Does this prove the Bible cannot be trusted? NO!


Last edited by LittleNipper on Mon May 21, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:24 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Little Nipper, I am afraid we will have to find ourselves in agreement on your above statement.


Why are you afraid? Fear is what Christ came to eliminate!

causual irony only. Perhaps it would have been clearer to say that I welcome the fact that we can agree on this foundation.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Bible Inerrant?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:02 am 
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Is salvation really that clear? I think many people assume it is the reward for living a good life, while others think it stems from doing good works or confessing a belief in Jesus. Still, others take the Calvinist view that it is all predestined and only a certain number will be taking the escalator to the sky.

Evangelicals believe they will be beamed up during an event called "the Rapture". Seems pretty unclear to me once I defocus back the microscope and take a more macroscopic view. Maybe moksha or nirvana is in store for us. Perhaps the Great Raven will fly us to Manitou. Onward to Valhalla! Maybe we will find ourselves asking the question, "How now brown Dao?"

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