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Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:53 am
by grindael
I heard this and I was reminded of something Smith wrote,

Kavanaugh 2018:

Dr. Ford's allegation dates back more than 36 years, to a party that she says occurred during our time in high school. I spent most of my time in high school focused on academics, sports, church, and service. But I was not perfect in those days, just as I am not perfect today. I drank beer with my friends, usually on weekends. Sometimes I had too many. In retrospect, I said and did things in high school that make me cringe now. But that's not why we are here today. What I've been accused of is far more serious than juvenile misbehavior. I never did anything remotely resembling what Dr. Ford describes.


Smith 1838:

I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been...


Some things never change...

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:20 pm
by Rosebud
:(

Humans act like humans. They keep doing the same things.... again and again and again.

Chalking one person's actions up to an incredible exception -- like a divine calling -- is to deny the reality of the range of normal human behavior and the may recognizable patterns in human behavior.

Joseph Smith was a man acting like a man. This seems so obvious from where I sit. I get that men like Brian Hales have never had the misfortune of being on the receiving side of the worse end of of normal human male sexual behavior, but I don't think seeing Joseph from a more realistic perspective should be that difficult. Men watch the way other men act towards women. Hales watches. Men compete with men for women's attention. Joseph isn't that difficult to understand.

I assume it feels good for Hales to believe Joseph was inspired and acting for God. I assume that makes Hales feel better about who Hales is and what Hales believes his relationship with God to be.

But what does Hales holding onto his beliefs about Joseph's divine sanction for actions that harmed women simultaneously communicate to contemporary women about how they should feel about their roles and their relationships to God?

At the crux of it, Hales' defense of Joseph Smith is selfish and short sighted. Trump et al.'s defense of Kavanaugh, too. The third-party defenses are political in both cases. What does Hales get out of defending Joseph Smith? What do Trump et al. get out of defending Kavanaugh? That's where the more interesting stories lie.

Real human behavior is much more interesting than angels with flaming swords. Stories of angels with flaming swords are only interesting because of what the stories' existence tells us about the range of normal human behavior.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:34 pm
by grindael
Like with Kavanaugh, Joseph had the wife and kids, who he presented to the public as his greatest trophy, and had always been "true" to. But in private, it was a whole different ball game. I don't know if Kavanaugh has some other skeletons in his closet, he might be more disciplined than Jospeh was, less willing (later) to take risks. But at his core, it appears he had a lot in common with Joseph Smith in this regard.

I find it all rather disgusting.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:53 pm
by Kishkumen
Kavanaugh is a two-faced phony. He is almost certainly guilty of having abused women in high school and college. He probably kept it up later too. The easiest lie to bat down is his lie about respecting women. Look at the yearbook. There is nothing resembling respect for women in his high school yearbook entry. Recall him calling Hillary Clinton a “____.” Respect for women? Uh, no. He was really tight with a judge who was dismissed from the bench for his lewdness toward women. Kavanaugh claims he knew nothing about that. Maybe Kavanaugh was in a coma the whole time? Unconscious through the whole relationship of many years with Kozinski? No.

Mormon support for Kavanaugh is just one more example of the male chauvinism, and even misogyny, in the LDS Church. Senator Flake is the one prominent LDS politician in the GOP who comes close to an appropriate response to these accusations, and he still falls short, in my view.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:10 pm
by Water Dog
What a shock, Kish is intimated by Kavanaugh's maleness. Because Kavanaugh played on the high school football team, while Kish was being stuffed into trash cans. Or something. Who the hell knows. Or cares. Destroy this man's life!

And of course, this is a totally relevant subject for Terrestrial. Let's circumvent Shades's rules by drawing a comparison to Joseph Smith.

Y'all are truly sick people.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:45 pm
by Kishkumen
Water Dog wrote:What a shock, Kish is intimated by Kavanaugh's maleness. Because Kavanaugh played on the high school football team, while Kish was being stuffed into trash cans. Or something. Who the hell knows. Or cares. Destroy this man's life!

And of course, this is a totally relevant subject for Terrestrial. Let's circumvent Shades's rules by drawing a comparison to Joseph Smith.

Y'all are truly sick people.


Or discussing the reaction of Mormon pols to accusations of sexual misconduct, which is exactly on point. The only thing disappointing on this thread is your predictable reaction to it. Did I say anything about football or point to the evidence of the yearbook entry HE VOLUNTARILY WROTE HIMSELF?

Sorry you are butthurt there, Water Dog. No need to make it personal, but of course you did, because what else have you got?

Zilch.

Sad!

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:57 pm
by grindael
Sick people? :lol: That's what Smith & Kavanaugh are, two peas in a pod. And it was a legitimate comparison, knowing as I do, the entire history of Smith and what he said, and it struck me how alike the responses were. If you have a problem with that, Water Dog, hit the :exclaim: button. And I'm sure there were many who were complaining in Smith's day, that the reports about him were "destroying his life'. Yeah, I've seen that movie too.

And if you think Kavanaugh's "maleness" is something to be intimidated by, (with all his denigration of women) ... well, I'll just let it go at that.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:00 pm
by Kishkumen
grindael wrote:Sick people? :lol: That's what Smith & Kavanaugh are, two peas in a pod. And it was a legitimate comparison, knowing as I do, the entire history of Smith and what he said, and it struck me how alike the responses were. If you have a problem with that, Water Dog, hit the :exclaim: button.


What I guess we are missing in Water Dog’s reaction to the thread is the possibility that refraining from sexual assault and rape just isn’t manly in the eyes of some.

Roy Moore was just being a man’s man when he chased teenage girls at the mall. Full grown women were a little too scary. Joseph Smith never met a lady he wouldn’t try to spook into bed. Eternal damnation is one hell of an aphrodisiac!

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:04 pm
by Water Dog
Sigh. Enjoy your circle jerk, Kish. Not going to play these dishonest games with you. If you truly believe you're being your best self right now, well, golf clapp, you keep doing you.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:06 pm
by Kishkumen
Water Dog wrote:Sigh. Enjoy your circle jerk, Kish. Not going to play these dishonest games with you. If you truly believe you're being your best self right now, well, golf clapp, you keep doing you.


The thing about taking the moral high ground, Water Dog, is that you need to have something moral backing up your argument to begin with. Responding to evidence with insults is a crappy opener.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:06 pm
by grindael
Water Dog are you feeling threatened by Kish? Your response to him implies something deeper than my comparison of Joseph Smith & Kavanaugh. Jesus, WTF?

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:08 pm
by Kishkumen
grindael wrote:And if you think Kavanaugh's "maleness" is something to be intimidated by, (with all his denigration of women) ... well, I'll just let it go at that.


That was a real head scratcher. The only thing this guy has going for him is a boatload of privilege and partisan ruthlessness. Masculinity is the last thing that comes to mind.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:11 pm
by Water Dog
grindael wrote:Sick people? :lol: That's what Smith & Kavanaugh are, two peas in a pod. And it was a legitimate comparison, knowing as I do, the entire history of Smith and what he said, and it struck me how alike the responses were.

Grindael, if you consider this a legitimate comparison, a credible and well-supported comparison, based on the facts, you're incompetent. Period. It calls into question anything you have to say about Joseph Smith. Any historical fact you cite, all of your supposed research,
historical analysis and interpretations, etc.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:11 pm
by Kishkumen
grindael wrote:Water Dog are you feeling threatened by Kish? Your response to him implies something deeper than my comparison of Joseph Smith & Kavanaugh. Jesus, WTF?


Water Dog has a visceral hatred of modern feminism.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:14 pm
by Kishkumen
Water Dog wrote:Grindael, if you consider this a legitimate comparison, a credible and well-supported comparison, based on the facts, you're incompetent. Period. It calls into question anything you have to say about Joseph Smith. Any historical fact you cite, all of your supposed research,
historical analysis and interpretations, etc.


One threatened eternal damnation. The other spiked the punch. Neither seems to have been able to woo the young girls they desired honestly, so there is definitely something to the comparison.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 pm
by grindael
You know Kish, I drank to excess in my younger days, but I never was interested in social clubs where they did such things (initiations, etc.) it all seems so freaking silly. The closest thing I can claim is being in a motorcycle club and on a local pool team where we would get sloppy drunk and play pool and sometimes get into altercations. And I picked up my share of women in bars. But what they were doing, is absolutely despicable. And I believe the women. Having studied Smith and his penchant for preying on women, Kavanaugh doesn't pass the smell test. Go back to the responses to their youthful "follies". It's an amazingly similar response.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 pm
by Rosebud
Water Dog wrote:What a shock, Kish is intimated by Kavanaugh's maleness. Because Kavanaugh played on the high school football team, while Kish was being stuffed into trash cans. Or something. Who the hell knows. Or cares. Destroy this man's life!

And of course, this is a totally relevant subject for Terrestrial. Let's circumvent Shades's rules by drawing a comparison to Joseph Smith.

Y'all are truly sick people.


Like I said, men (both homo and heterosexual) are all aware of the "maleness" of other men and the competition for social superiority. They throw it at each other like spears in a rutting match.

Hales has no excuse for not seeing in Joseph Smith what is so obviously demonstrated in Water Dog's weak attempt to insult another man.

Water Dog provides demonstration of proof number 1 of billions upon billions of demonstrations of proof of the normal range of human male behavior. It does get rather boring.

Edit: omission of the word "so"

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:17 pm
by grindael
Water Dog wrote:
grindael wrote:Sick people? :lol: That's what Smith & Kavanaugh are, two peas in a pod. And it was a legitimate comparison, knowing as I do, the entire history of Smith and what he said, and it struck me how alike the responses were.

Grindael, if you consider this a legitimate comparison, a credible and well-supported comparison, based on the facts, you're incompetent. Period. It calls into question anything you have to say about Joseph Smith. Any historical fact you cite, all of your supposed research, historical analysis and interpretations, etc.


Oh yeah, try and back that up with evidence. :lol: You're just full of empty bluster, aren't you?

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:19 pm
by Rosebud
grindael wrote:Like with Kavanaugh, Joseph had the wife and kids, who he presented to the public as his greatest trophy, and had always been "true" to. But in private, it was a whole different ball game. I don't know if Kavanaugh has some other skeletons in his closet, he might be more disciplined than Jospeh was, less willing (later) to take risks. But at his core, it appears he had a lot in common with Joseph Smith in this regard.

I find it all rather disgusting.


Yup.... sign number one is advertising one's "trueness" to a trophy wife. It happens again and again and again.

See a man advertising his trueness to his trophy wife? Think... ah... most likely this guy has something else going on behind the scenes.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:19 pm
by Kishkumen
grindael wrote:You know Kish, I drank to excess in my younger days, but I never was interested in social clubs where they did such things (initiations, etc.) it all seems so freaking silly. The closest thing I can claim is being in a motorcycle club and on a local pool team where we would get sloppy drunk and play pool and sometimes get into altercations. And I picked up my share of women in bars. But what they were doing, is absolutely despicable. And I believe the women. Having studied Smith and his penchant for preying on women, Kavanaugh doesn't pass the smell test. Go back to the responses to their youthful "follies". It's an amazingly similar response.


I’ve got nothing against the drink, but I think we all know that there were always some young guys who tried to get women stumbling drunk to take advantage of them. Such guys were always cowards. Not men. And certainly no one whose masculinity could be called intimidating. Instead such behavior bespeaks a real deep seated sense of powerlessness.

Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:23 pm
by Rosebud
Or should we seriously consider whether or not Joseph Smith was the one divinely inspired exception? The one divinely called to restore an omniscient and omnipotent God's tendency to exploit and denigrate women.....

Seriously?

There are so many good, outstanding men in this world. It's insulting to all of the men on the more positive side of the normal range of human male behavior to make a public hero out of a man like Joseph Smith.