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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:24 pm 
Dragon
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I've sat in my share of bars and had not a one give me the time of day. You just go home and try again another day. You don't do a Cosby on them to get your way. That's what Kavanaugh is being accused of doing, and his own words show his contempt for women. This guy on the Supreme Court? Joseph Smith for President? I don't think so.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
One threatened eternal damnation. The other spiked the punch.

Hahaha. You seriously have a Ph.D.? People look to you as an "expert" on matters of historical truth? What an absolute farce. How in the world is your analysis of history worth a damn when you deal with facts so recklessly? No dignity whatsoever.

Kishkumen wrote:
That was a real head scratcher. The only thing this guy has going for him is a boatload of privilege and partisan ruthlessness. Masculinity is the last thing that comes to mind.

Partisan ruthlessness? Is this your way of saying, toxic and unbecoming of "true" masculinity? LOL. Like I said, enjoy your circle jerk. Not going to play these games. You know that you're lying. Just as DCP knows when he's lying. Won't waste any more time on this...


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
One threatened eternal damnation. The other spiked the punch.

Hahaha. You seriously have a Ph.D.? People look to you as an "expert" on matters of historical truth? What an absolute farce. How in the world is your analysis of history worth a damn when you deal with facts so recklessly? No dignity whatsoever.

Kishkumen wrote:
That was a real head scratcher. The only thing this guy has going for him is a boatload of privilege and partisan ruthlessness. Masculinity is the last thing that comes to mind.

Partisan ruthlessness? Is this your way of saying, toxic and unbecoming of "true" masculinity? LOL. Like I said, enjoy your circle jerk. Not going to play these games. You know that you're lying. Just as DCP knows when he's lying. Won't waste any more time on this...


You are playing. So much for your integrity here.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:29 pm 
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grindael wrote:
You know Kish, I drank to excess in my younger days, but I never was interested in social clubs where they did such things (initiations, etc.) it all seems so freaking silly. The closest thing I can claim is being in a motorcycle club and on a local pool team where we would get sloppy drunk and play pool and sometimes get into altercations. And I picked up my share of women in bars. But what they were doing, is absolutely despicable. And I believe the women. Having studied Smith and his penchant for preying on women, Kavanaugh doesn't pass the smell test. Go back to the responses to their youthful "follies". It's an amazingly similar response.


Kishkumen wrote:
I’ve got nothing against the drink, but I think we all know that there were always some young guys who tried to get women stumbling drunk to take advantage of them. Such guys were always cowards. Not men. And certainly no one whose masculinity could be called intimidating. Instead such behavior bespeaks a real deep seated sense of powerlessness.


Yup. It's weak.... and so obvious and so insulting. "Here, let me buy you some expensive wine..."

You know, I worked really hard to raise a good son in a bad environment with a father who wasn't a fantastic example. And you know.... all the bad things that happened during my son's adolescence related to Mormonism, divorce and drama... he was able to turn into good... into respect for women. He watched other men act like assholes and he learned.

There's no good excuse for being a weak, predatory man who targets vulnerable women and takes advantage of them all for self-gain and to prove some sort of social superiority to other men. And isn't that ultimately what Hales is doing too? In his own Mormon way?

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Hahaha. You seriously have a Ph.D.? People look to you as an "expert" on matters of historical truth? What an absolute farce. How in the world is your analysis of history worth a damn when you deal with facts so recklessly? No dignity whatsoever.


Keep going with the empty insults and posturing there, Water Dog. Far be it from you to raise substantive objections or talk about evidence. I’ll give you this: an obviously guilty man would find useful legal representation in you. You know how to ramp up the rhetoric when you’re rolling snake eyes.

Water Dog wrote:
Partisan ruthlessness? Is this your way of saying, toxic and unbecoming of "true" masculinity? LOL. Like I said, enjoy your circle jerk. Not going to play these games. You know that you're lying. Just as DCP knows when he's lying. Won't waste any more time on this...


Another fine example. I meant what I said. Ken Starr loved this guy for a reason. He is a good foot soldier for extremist conservatism, willing to string together stray bits of information to turn poop into gold. I wouldn’t be surprised to find he offered pro bono help on all of the Benghazi investigations.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
There's no good excuse for being a weak, predatory man who targets vulnerable women and takes advantage of them all for self-gain and to prove some sort of social superiority to other men. And isn't that ultimately what Hales is doing too? In his own Mormon way?


No good excuse for Donald Trump, in other words, and the multitudes of losers like him. They get a lot of help from useful idiots and enablers. I like Hales, but he does himself no favors by consistently reading the evidence in a very idiosyncratic way—the way that is best for exonerating Joseph Smith.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
There's no good excuse for being a weak, predatory man who targets vulnerable women and takes advantage of them all for self-gain and to prove some sort of social superiority to other men. And isn't that ultimately what Hales is doing too? In his own Mormon way?


Kishkumen wrote:
No good excuse for Donald Trump, in other words, and the multitudes of losers like him. They get a lot of help from useful idiots and enablers. I like Hales, but he does himself no favors by consistently reading the evidence in a very idiosyncratic way—the way that is best for exonerating Joseph Smith.


Exonerating Joseph Smith and boosting his own position in the church and in his heaven -- including in his heaven with his women. It's all the same thing. In Hales' mind, he wins more women because he's the righteous one who believes in and supports God's true plan. The less worthy men don't get the same reward. Religion is Hales' form of football. It's a rutting behavior couched in smooth, creepy religious talk and belief.

No, he does himself no favors at all. It looks very bad. It is bad. At least he's not a suicide bomber counting his virgins in heaven, but..... Moronism can get really fanatical. It's amazing how much lack of self-awareness some people can have. The psychological binds are strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Interestingly, Dr. Peterson is claiming that he, too (i.e., DCP) is similar to Brett Kavanaugh:

Sic et non wrote:
My indignation on this point doesn’t stem merely from the fact that I’m a libertarian-leaning political conservative who thinks that Brett Kavanaugh would make a fine Supreme Court justice. I’m upset and I find what’s currently happening to him obscene, but I would feel the same way were the nominee a political liberal. (For the record: I once literally ran into Al Franken in Reagan National Airport. I didn’t support him politically and, had I lived in Minnesota, I would have opposed him. But I think that he was driven from the Senate without the investigation that he had asked for and that he deserved. I believe strongly in the presumption of innocence and in due process — even for those with whom I disagree.)

I am, perhaps, slightly senstive on this subject, personally. In a very much smaller but still quite public way, I myself have been smeared on a weekly if not daily basis for at least a decade, and possibly for more than a decade and a half, rather systematically, by two or three or maybe four anonymous people on the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Interestingly, Dr. Peterson is claiming that he, too (i.e., DCP) is similar to Brett Kavanaugh:

Sic et non wrote:
My indignation on this point doesn’t stem merely from the fact that I’m a libertarian-leaning political conservative who thinks that Brett Kavanaugh would make a fine Supreme Court justice. I’m upset and I find what’s currently happening to him obscene, but I would feel the same way were the nominee a political liberal. (For the record: I once literally ran into Al Franken in Reagan National Airport. I didn’t support him politically and, had I lived in Minnesota, I would have opposed him. But I think that he was driven from the Senate without the investigation that he had asked for and that he deserved. I believe strongly in the presumption of innocence and in due process — even for those with whom I disagree.)

I am, perhaps, slightly senstive on this subject, personally. In a very much smaller but still quite public way, I myself have been smeared on a weekly if not daily basis for at least a decade, and possibly for more than a decade and a half, rather systematically, by two or three or maybe four anonymous people on the internet.


I get the sense that DCP is beyond the beginning stages of losing it. Something is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Oh poor, poor Dan Peterson. The whining just never stops. And Franken was just accused of having wandering hands during photos, not doing a Cosby on women, and still had the dignity to resign, something that Kavanaugh knows nothing about.

And really, if Dan is so gung ho for FAIRNESS and DUE PROCESS, why is he not giving the women a fair shake by calling for an FBI investigation? Isn't he supporting Kavanaugh BEFORE all the evidence is in? The WOMEN are ASKING FOR AN INVESTIGATION. Where is Peterson's ire for THEM?

Nowhere to be found. Just another male chauvinist dick.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Speaking as an aging retired civil rights lawyer who mostly represented what are generally regarded as "right wing" causes in the federal courts....

The Supreme Court is a big deal. It is a bigger deal than even the people who think it's a big deal generally think. And while most people may be obsessed with some particular issue, e.g., abortion rights, the business the Court has to do is very wide and very deep. Many of the issues which I, as a litigator, still regard as being of the utmost importance get almost no coverage when they come up, because they relate to issues which are hard to understand if you don't have your head in this stuff all day long and which have implications that are enormous for people's actual ability to sue and obtain relief when their rights are violated.

We need intellectuals on the court. Whatever the politics, these people have to be good. They have to be deep thinkers with serious credentials, people who have toiled in litigation and who understand what the disputes that come to the Court really are and how they take shape and how the outcomes affect everything going forward.

Apart from the issue of "character" being an important one, very little attention seems to be paid to the fact that this guy is not one of the federal court system's bright lights. We have people like that of a wide variety of political stripes, but Kavanaugh is there because he's a loyal party hack. And believe it or not, drunken frat-boy misogynists who post in their yearbook that they're among the "Renata Alumnius" don't really grow up to be intellectuals. This is difficult stuff. We need our best people. You can't just take somebody who tried to deny an immigrant an abortion before getting slapped down by a panel of his own court and elevate him to this kind of status.

And as for "due process," well, I was something of a due process specialist in my civil rights work. Let me tell you how that goes. What process is legally owed to a nominee? None. Ask Merrick Garland. The Senate may refuse a nominee for any reason, good or bad. Senators may apply any standard they like, any presumption they like -- this is not a judicial proceeding but a legislative one. If someone in the Senate says he won't put a man on the court if he's only 98% sure that that man isn't an attempted rapist, well, then that's the standard for that Senator and he has no obligation to think otherwise. The hope is that this will be done in a way which is not arbitrary, of course, but there is no constraint, no entitlement to process, nothing.

That said: wouldn't it be nice if someone would stand up and say that he won't vote for a party hack, even from his own party?


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:45 pm 
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What a relief to find out about DCP’s sudden change of heart regarding Al Franken:

Sic et non wrote:
I would feel the same way were the nominee a political liberal. (For the record: I once literally ran into Al Franken in Reagan National Airport. I didn’t support him politically and, had I lived in Minnesota, I would have opposed him. But I think that he was driven from the Senate without the investigation that he had asked for and that he deserved. I believe strongly in the presumption of innocence and in due process — even for those with whom I disagree.)


Why, I remember what he had to say at the time:

Quote:
I’m not a fan of Al Franken as a senator. I once (literally) ran into him, by accident, at Reagan National Airport in Washington DC. Perhaps I should have hit him harder.

So, now that Senator Franken has (very credibly) been accused of inappropriate behavior toward a woman, I find it deeply gratifying that we have a man in the White House who has the moral authority to condemn the senator’s misbehavior — although the President has been silent as a Trappist monk on the subject of Judge Roy Moore.


See http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/11/make-america-great.html

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Puck Mendelssohn wrote:
We need intellectuals on the court. Whatever the politics, these people have to be good. They have to be deep thinkers with serious credentials, people who have toiled in litigation and who understand what the disputes that come to the Court really are and how they take shape and how the outcomes affect everything going forward.

Apart from the issue of "character" being an important one, very little attention seems to be paid to the fact that this guy is not one of the federal court system's bright lights. We have people like that of a wide variety of political stripes, but Kavanaugh is there because he's a loyal party hack. And believe it or not, drunken frat-boy misogynists who post in their yearbook that they're among the "Renata Alumnius" don't really grow up to be intellectuals. This is difficult stuff. We need our best people. You can't just take somebody who tried to deny an immigrant an abortion before getting slapped down by a panel of his own court and elevate him to this kind of status.


My primary concern about the accusations against Kavanaugh is that they draw off all the oxygen. Once this has burned out there will be no time or energy to discuss his lack of merit on other grounds. That said, today’s GOP is all about elevating mediocre, unscrupulous loyalists. The plutocracy wants people who know how to take orders, not profound thinkers. It’s not like his lack of depth would have cost him his golden ticket. I suspect he has been floated financially and in many other ways in preparation for this. The plutocrats won’t let go of this investment gently. They will ram it through if they can.

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:11 pm 
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grindael wrote:
I heard this and I was reminded of something Smith wrote


There are now three versions of Dr. Ford's allegation... Some things never change? Parallels to Smith's multiple First Vision accounts aside, there's probably a lesson to be learned from this:

People will defend a narrative, often times unquestioningly, if it dovetails with their feelings.

In this case I think the situation aligns more closely with a faithful First Vision narrative than a teen's activities. I don't see why we need to take things on faith when facts ought to, and do, matter. They really, really matter.

Also, another parallel exists:

Be careful what you wish for.

Much like Brigham Young succeeding a murdered Joseph produced a tyrranical version of Mormonism, you have another judge waiting in the wings that's much more detrimental to liberalism and precedent and she'll probably be bulletproof to Democrat strategy if Kavanaugh gets knocked off.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:13 pm 
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In the comment section of the same post in which Peterson wishes he had hit Franken harder at the airport and calls the accusations against Franken credible, he further opines:

Quote:
Maybe he's changed.

But the charges against him are credible. If he's really changed, he should frankly acknowledge having done wrong, express contrition, and SAY that he's changed -- preferably backing that all up with a record of good behavior lasting many years.

He still doesn't belong in the Senate, though.


There you have it. Now, in the face of a tottering Kavanaugh nomination, DCP thinks Franken was unjustly chased out of the Senate. At the time, however, he felt, on the basis of less evidence, that Franken did not belong in the Senate.

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:16 pm 
Seedy Academician
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
grindael wrote:
I heard this and I was reminded of something Smith wrote


There are now three versions of Dr. Ford's allegation... Some things never change? Parallels to Smith's multiple First Vision accounts aside, there's probably a lesson to be learned from this:

People will defend a narrative, often times unquestioningly, if it dovetails with their feelings.

In this case I think the situation aligns more closely with a faithful First Vision narrative than a teen's activities. I don't see why we need to take things on faith when facts ought to, and do, matter. They really, really matter.

Also, another parallel exists:

Be careful what you wish for.

Much like Brigham Young succeeding a murdered Joseph produced a tyrranical version of Mormonism, you have another judge waiting in the wings that's much more detrimental to liberalism and precedent and she'll probably be bulletproof to Democrat strategy if Kavanaugh gets knocked off.

- Doc


Well, Ford would be happy to have the FBI investigate her allegations, so we don’t need to rely on her word alone. Bet ole Joe Smith would never have welcomed such scrutiny. Neither does Trump or Kavanaugh.

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Yeah, when ol Jo was accused by Wm. Law of adultery, and Law went to Carthage and filed charges, Jo got all indignant and claimed that he was going to Carthage to set things straight. So... what did he do? Nothing. He indeed went to Carthage but checked in on a different case against him and did not show up for the Law case.

I wonder why? My friend John Dinger wrote all about it, here: https://rationalfaiths.com/joseph-smith ... rnication/

You don't want to miss out on this great article if you haven't read it already.

Quote:
Finally, the court records present the most persuasive evidence that Smith never attempted to force a trial, prove his innocence, or “investigate” the indictment during the May term. A review of the official court docket book show that Smith only appeared in one case on May 27, the case of Charles A. Foster v. Joseph Smith.[27] In fact, the case of The People of the State of Illinois v. Joseph Smith Sen. – Indictment for Adultery and Fornication was called on May 27, when Smith was in Carthage, but he did not appear. The two primary witnesses, William and Wilson Law, appeared and promised to be present for trial at the October 1844 term of the Circuit Court. Not only did Smith not appear, but there is no objection noted from his attorneys.[28] Any claim he went to Carthage to prove his innocence for the crimes of adultery and fornication, is not supported by the court docket.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
There are now three versions of Dr. Ford's allegation

What are those?

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Okay, I don't understand why Shulem's Terrestrial posts get thrust down to hell all the time, and this crap is allowed? I'm not complaining, just making an observation. Release the Kraken I say. Just be fair about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:40 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
There are now three versions of Dr. Ford's allegation...

Trying to channel that right now. First, there was a glowing appendage being lowered from the dorm ceiling. Then the appendage became Brett Kavanaugh and in the final telling there was the appendage Kavanaugh along with Trump saying, "This is my Supreme Court nominee, let him grab you".

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 Post subject: Re: Kavanaugh & Joseph Smith
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:31 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Well, Ford would be happy to have the FBI investigate her allegations, so we don’t need to rely on her word alone. Bet ole Joe Smith would never have welcomed such scrutiny. Neither does Trump or Kavanaugh.


Well, I was trying to stay within the thinly veiled spirit of the thread, and to make a parallel to Joseph Smith. Are we done with any pretense that this current event mirrors Joseph Smith's life?

So. Let's not forget Feinstein sat on this letter for six weeks, during which, an investigation could've been conducted. What possible motivation could she have for wanting to push right on this affair?

On Monday the 17th I believe, the Today show directly asked Ford's attorney, Debra Katz, if Ford was "willing to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, publicly, and tell this story."

This was like Joseph Smith being asked to testify of his faith. Or something. See? I'm trying to make a parallel in the spirit of the thread.

Katz gave a definitive answer: "She is. She's willing to do whatever it takes to get her story forth, yes."

That commitment to do "whatever it takes" — if it ever was sincere — evaporated as soon as Republicans took Ford up on her offer.

This was like when Joseph Smith said he'd do something, and then he didn't do when he was caught up in a fabrication. See? Parallel. Because this is the Terrestrial forum.

Later that same day, Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley agreed to put off Kavanaugh's confirmation vote, which had been scheduled for the 20th, and hold a session on the 24th to hear from both Ford and Kavanaugh about the accusations. But when Grassley tried to reach Ford and her attorney to make arrangements, he got nowhere.

Here's what Grassley told radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt on Tuesday, the 25th.

"We have reached out to her in the last 36 hours three or four times by email, and we've not heard from them," he said. "So, it kind of raises the question do they want to, do they want to come to the public hearing or not?"

Ford and her team, at one point claimed she was terrified of flying, even though she flew 3,000 miles to take a polygraph arranged by her lawyer. Then she claimed she wanted a safe space while testifying to the Senate. And when she finally got various demands made, remember this is a full-grown woman, a Stanford professor, claiming fragility, she finally agreed to show up. This, of course, bought more time to arrange other accusers, who, well, I'm not even going there because they're completely ____ ridiculous.

Oh. Something something Joseph Smith because this is the Terrestrial forum and we need to stay within the spirit of keeping it tied to Mormonism.

- Doc

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


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