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 Post subject: Re: Infynatly mustaken
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:48 am 
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Gazelam wrote:
"Since the Mormon Jesus’ plan is a plan of compulsion – every knee shall bow and accept he is God, therefore none of us have a choice, even if we reject it all to the last day. No free agency, no decision made on our parts – we are forced to accept and obey. "


Wow, you must really hate gravity then, you know, being this confineing law that holds you down and all. Do you go outside and look up and the sun and scream a lot? "Curse you! Damn you , you bringer of confineing gravity ! If it werent for you, I could fly!!"

Post something else, you make me laugh.


Is that all you have Gazelam? Suddenly I hate gravity because I hate the Mormon Plan Of Imprisonment? Typical Mormon. “I have nothing to add, so I will – change the subject!” Is what I wrote too difficult for you to comprehend? I know that Mormonism teaches you not to think about things too seriously, so I will try and explain it a little for you.

You don’t care that the POS™ is flawed – because I’m very sure that somewhere deep inside you – you hope that you are going to make it to the top – as long as you keep paying, praying and obeying. Of course, you better hope that Joseph Smith accepts you, hope that you remember your secret handshake, secret new name, secret passwords – providing you have paid enough money to get into the temple and the maintain paying money for the rest of your life. Even if you make it that far, you will of course be assigned no less than 3 wives because to become a God, you have to be polygamous. And still, you’re at the whim of both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. If you have at all strived for individuality during your lifetime - you will be rejected.

Mormonism offers no alternate plan to the POS™, no back door, no way out. Either you follow the Mormon God, or the Mormon God is going to place you in a prison cell. That prison cell may be adorned with flowers and sunshine, and vast tracks of land – but in the end, after millions of years – it will still be a prison.

The Mormon God is nothing more than a cruel warden.

It is interesting that Mormons who are enthralled in the cult cannot see the POS™ for what it truly is. You Mormons always get side tracked into mental gymnastics when faced with actually “thinking” about your own doctrine. You confuse the true meaning of Agency. You obscure the truth behind the POS™ and when you cannot mentally explain it, stoop to “all will be revealed after death” line of ____ reasoning – and the one I hated the most, “You choose this plan before you were born” crap.

Mormon POS™ has only two choices. Either accept and obey, or reject and be punished. There is no third choice. There is no walking out the door. You shall bow before the Mormon God and give him your ultimate obedience – or you will be punished. There is no "otherwise". It is not a consequence-determined event. It is black and it is white. And Mormons call that “choice”, they call that “agency”. In the Mormon Universe™, the only thing that exists is Mormonism and the Mormon POS™. Why would you want anything else?

The spirit prison and the plan of salvation is akin to this. There is no choice. Mormons state that the choice is that you would stay in that prison until judgment time - in which you will be forced to bend knee and worship God. And then you will be placed in a kingdom - definitely not the Celestial Kingdom - but some other kingdom that is "set aside for that which is filthy" because the Kingdom of God is not filthy. No, it is full of those with no mind of their own, no choice of their own – no individuality.

All three kingdoms of heaven in Mormonism - if we look at the universe as a whole, as an expansive place that has infinite expansion capabilities, and we place each eternity to eternity into a "bubble" as we would call it, we would look out and find an infinite number of bubbles for each eternity to eternity that has existed for which god has raised children to salvation and those children have gone on to be god's themselves and continued the cycle. Each bubble expands to fill the proportion of space and time that is necessary in order to carry out the plans that are necessary to raise spiritual children from stage to stage wherein they would come to a created earth, get a body, and move onto further stages.

What we would find if we examined this closely, is that we would find an infinite number of 1st and 2nd degree kingdoms full of those persons who did not transpire to the level of the Celestial kingdom for which they could continue on as god's themselves. Therefore we would find a number of souls that could not be calculated in numbers that are in states of prisons where they cannot move from kingdom to kingdom. This is an awful state. Mormonism accepts this state because they claim either these people merited this state of existence, or, these people were complacent and they choose to be in these kingdoms for all time and eternity - not just one bubble of eternity but all bubbles of eternity henceforth and forever. I am not even taking into account the number tossed away into Outer Darkness – and who knows how many times that has happened during the course of one eternity to eternity.

It is an atrocious fact that the Mormon God creates prisons in order to house those who are in disagreement with him. Because a person, who God claims is a son or daughter, a literal offspring of God, does not agree with God, that God locks that son or daughter away forever and ever. He claims that where he is, they cannot come. This flies in the face of reason and love and the statement that God has unconditional love.

No, the Mormon god is conditional - conditional that you fully obey him. That you turn off reason, you turn off choice, you turn off your individual self and become nothing more than a mindless follower who will always pay, pray and obey.

Agency, is an illusion created by those with power. Mormonism creates the illusion of free agency but further research and analysis points otherwise.

The POS™ is nothing more than a carefully crafted deception where the Mormon God casts his children into eternal prisons.

As I said, I would rather stand in front of the Mormon God and slit my throat than follow him in any way – shape – or form.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:15 am 
Hi Infymus! :)

I hope you don't mind, but I borrowed your last quote, and started a new thread in the Terrestrial Forum on "The Mormon God and Conditional Love".

I would enjoy your further input when you have a moment.

As a member of the Church, many of the points you brought out are of great concern to me as well.


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 Post subject: Infynatly mustaken
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:05 pm 
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I used gravity as an example because it perfectly applies to what you have said.

The Plan of Salvation is the way things are. Just like gravity. Both are set laws of the universe, unchangeing and eternal.

Lets take an example from my own life. My family growing up was very "Leave it to Beaver" ish. Mom stayed home and raised the kids, Dad went to work every day and provided for us. Parents loved each other, and together loved all of us. We never wanted for anything. What could go wrong?

Enter my sister. She was and continues to be a devil. She was selfish and rotten from the crib to today, desireing only what will bring her pleasure, laying no foundation for her future. she's brought four children into the world who all continue to suffer under her hand, unless she drops them off at the grandparents to stay again for an unspecified amount of time.

Now all of us were raised "after the manner of happiness". All of my brothers have married and stay with their wives where others would have been divorced. They followed the pattern set down by the parent to live a happy life.

But then theres the daughter who sought her "freedom" as she supposed. She hung out with lowlifes, did plenty of drugs, slept around. All in the name of escapeing a judgemental parent, and making her own way and her own choices. She grew up in the Reagan era of "just say no", She had parents who told her not to drink, not to smoke, not to sleep around. The example set was to obtain a hard working husband who treated her with respect. She lived a life in opposition to to all three.

In the name of freedom and free agency (The abuse of when viewed from the outside looking in) She now has all the children she could have before my mother forced her tubes to be tied. Her husband is nowhere to be seen since he left town with the drug money, leaveing her in the lurch to be beaten and raped by the dealers. She can't get a job becasue who can afford daycare for four? She lives as a single parent, with no prospects, and no one wantign to be around her since she tends to burn all her bridges. Even the Brother who loved her the most and stuck with her when everyone else bailed , she stole from and lied to.

She is a perfect example of standing against the principles of God. An example of our Brother Lucifer and his railing against the Plan of Salvation. Both reaped what they sewed. And so will you.

Gazelam

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:53 pm 
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Gazelam wrote:
Nice post brack.

I think it will be suprising who ends up where. I notice that they accept the Holy Ghost, but not Christ. And does it mean that they believe in Christ, but a different one? To accept Christ is to accept his doctrine, those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who have been baptised. If the tanners had their names removed from the church records, then perhaps they do fall into the telestial kingdom, having accepted a different Christ, and denying his gospel.

I don't know, we'll see I guess.
LDS are offended when evangelicals assert that the LDS worship a different Jesus. It appears you agree with them. Don't tell the brethren this. Shhhhh!


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 Post subject: A Different Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:00 am 
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Are Latter-day Saints Christian, or do they worship a different Jesus? In this engaging book, Robert Millet clearly explains why Latter-day Saints claim to be Christians and compares their understanding of Jesus with the views of traditional Christian believers.
A leading Mormon scholar who has spent much of his career in conversation with traditional Christians and their writings, Millet discusses what constitutes Christianity and examines how the Latter-day Saints fit or do not fit within that rubric.

Intended to inform rather than to convince or persuade, "A Different Jesus?" clears away misconceptions and doctrinal distortions that characterize more polemical works about Mormonism. Millet points out the many beliefs that Latter-day Saints hold in common with traditional Christians, yet he also emphasizes differences where they exist.

"A Different Jesus?" initiates and will foster a significant dialogue between Latter-day Saints and traditional Christians. Of special value are a lengthy chapter that answers some of the most frequently asked questions about Mormonism, a glossary showing how key theological terms are defined by Latter-day Saints, and evangelical scholar Richard Mouw's foreword and afterword, which help set an agenda for future discussions between these religious traditions.



I loved this Book, couldent recommend it more.

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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:00 am 
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[quote="liz3564"]Hi Infymus! :)

I hope you don't mind, but I borrowed your last quote, and started a new thread in the Terrestrial Forum on "The Mormon God and Conditional Love".

I would enjoy your further input when you have a moment.

As a member of the Church, many of the points you brought out are of great concern to me as well.[/quote]

What you will find is that you will be dismissed, as I was. Mormons do not want to think about their own doctrine. I had a bishop and stake president that gave me no less than three blessings and tried in vain to cast out Satan and his angels from my body, because they figured it was Satan who was trying to confuse me. I was told repeatedly to put my questions up on the shelf and go back to paying, praying and obeying, and that I would receive my answers in the next life.

The next life isn’t good enough. I want the answers now, and the answers I was given were enough for me to walk away in open rebellion and have my name removed from the so-called “One True Church”.

So good luck, I’m doubtful you will find answers within Mormonism. I think you will find that most Mormons don’t even know the full POS™ very well. The do not comprehend the three kingdoms and the whole architecture of the POS™. I have co-workers who are BIC, served full missions and are active, paying, praying and obeying Mormons to this day – and don’t have a clue about the three kingdoms and all it entails. And that is because Mormonism doesn’t center around those things, it doesn’t “know if it teaches that”, as Gordo would so put it. Mormonism centers around making sure you aren’t a homosexual, or you aren’t wearing more than 1 earring per ear, or to make sure you are paying your tithing. Deeper doctrine only leads to questions. Questions lead to problems. Problems lead to the possibility of the member leaving the church – or in the case of someone like Daniel C. Peterson or Jeff Lindsay – stooping to ludicrous explanations as to how, what, why and when.

Again, good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Infynatly mustaken
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:07 am 
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Gazelam wrote:
I used gravity as an example because it perfectly applies to what you have said.

The Plan of Salvation is the way things are. Just like gravity. Both are set laws of the universe, unchangeing and eternal.

Lets take an example from my own life. My family growing up was very "Leave it to Beaver" ish. Mom stayed home and raised the kids, Dad went to work every day and provided for us. Parents loved each other, and together loved all of us. We never wanted for anything. What could go wrong?

Enter my sister. She was and continues to be a devil. She was selfish and rotten from the crib to today, desireing only what will bring her pleasure, laying no foundation for her future. she's brought four children into the world who all continue to suffer under her hand, unless she drops them off at the grandparents to stay again for an unspecified amount of time.

Now all of us were raised "after the manner of happiness". All of my brothers have married and stay with their wives where others would have been divorced. They followed the pattern set down by the parent to live a happy life.

But then theres the daughter who sought her "freedom" as she supposed. She hung out with lowlifes, did plenty of drugs, slept around. All in the name of escapeing a judgemental parent, and making her own way and her own choices. She grew up in the Reagan era of "just say no", She had parents who told her not to drink, not to smoke, not to sleep around. The example set was to obtain a hard working husband who treated her with respect. She lived a life in opposition to to all three.

In the name of freedom and free agency (The abuse of when viewed from the outside looking in) She now has all the children she could have before my mother forced her tubes to be tied. Her husband is nowhere to be seen since he left town with the drug money, leaveing her in the lurch to be beaten and raped by the dealers. She can't get a job becasue who can afford daycare for four? She lives as a single parent, with no prospects, and no one wantign to be around her since she tends to burn all her bridges. Even the Brother who loved her the most and stuck with her when everyone else bailed , she stole from and lied to.

She is a perfect example of standing against the principles of God. An example of our Brother Lucifer and his railing against the Plan of Salvation. Both reaped what they sewed. And so will you.

Gazelam


Your last statement, "She is a perfect example of standing against the principles of God. " sickens me. Does the Mormon Jesus teach you this kind of compassion? Sure he does.

I'm not here to convince you Gazelam. Since you call me “Infynatly mustaken“, there is no way I am ever going to get you to “think” about your own doctrine.

Just because you think it that the Mormon plan is “set laws of the universe, unchangeing and eternal.”, doesn’t mean you can’t object to it. Question it. Defy it. These individual traits of humanity are forbidden you – and you are taught that only evil would do so.

Alas, Mormonism doesn’t want you to think, question, reason or understand. Doesn’t want you to object to it, individualize, or rationalize. “There shall be no disputations among you”, your Mormon Jesus wrote in 3rd Nephi. Obey. Obey. Obey.

It wants you to be a shining model of pay, pray and obey. And Gazelam, I think you garner a wee bit of glee in holding to a position you refuse to comprehend.

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 Post subject: Re: A Different Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:16 am 
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Gazelam wrote:
Image

Are Latter-day Saints Christian, or do they worship a different Jesus? In this engaging book, Robert Millet clearly explains why Latter-day Saints claim to be Christians and compares their understanding of Jesus with the views of traditional Christian believers.
A leading Mormon scholar who has spent much of his career in conversation with traditional Christians and their writings, Millet discusses what constitutes Christianity and examines how the Latter-day Saints fit or do not fit within that rubric.

Intended to inform rather than to convince or persuade, "A Different Jesus?" clears away misconceptions and doctrinal distortions that characterize more polemical works about Mormonism. Millet points out the many beliefs that Latter-day Saints hold in common with traditional Christians, yet he also emphasizes differences where they exist.

"A Different Jesus?" initiates and will foster a significant dialogue between Latter-day Saints and traditional Christians. Of special value are a lengthy chapter that answers some of the most frequently asked questions about Mormonism, a glossary showing how key theological terms are defined by Latter-day Saints, and evangelical scholar Richard Mouw's foreword and afterword, which help set an agenda for future discussions between these religious traditions.



I loved this Book, couldent recommend it more.


More typical lane changing coming from you Gazelam. The topic of conversation is going in a certain direction, and all of a sudden you pull this card out of your pocket. I am beginning to see the picture about you more and more Gazelam.

And to answer your question, no, Mormons are not Christians as compared to all of the other Christian religions on earth. Mormons have created their own brand of Jesus and have copyrighted him. Mormons can claim they are Christians simply because their god’s name is “Christ”.

However, from my many years of being Mormon, I worshiped Joseph Smith far more than I ever worshiped Jesus Christ. Remember that Joseph Smith did far more than any man, save Jesus, and even Jesus’ followers ran from him when Joseph’s didn’t.

Robert Millet is a man who believes that lying or withholding information is appropriate. Just like Boyd K. Packer, both of these liars are men for whom truth is utterly expendable and who care more about the results (creating belief no matter what) than about integrity. Both men clearly believe that honesty is not a necessary part of the due process of obtaining one's belief.

Robert Millett has stated that Mormons are not obligated to answer any question, that Mormons know more about God and Jesus Christ than anyone else and that if someone asks a question – answer the RIGHT question that should have been asked.

He is both a liar and a deceiver, and I for one, would avoid anything that he writes as you will never know if you are reading truth.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Paul, you were born a few centuries too late. I have the feeling you would have made a splendid Inquisitor.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:49 pm 
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I'll continue this in the other thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:10 pm 
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I didn't know there was more than one Jesus!


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 Post subject: Re: Infynatly mustaken
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:36 am 
Gazelam wrote:
I used gravity as an example because it perfectly applies to what you have said.

The Plan of Salvation is the way things are. Just like gravity. Both are set laws of the universe, unchangeing and eternal.

Lets take an example from my own life. My family growing up was very "Leave it to Beaver" ish. Mom stayed home and raised the kids, Dad went to work every day and provided for us. Parents loved each other, and together loved all of us. We never wanted for anything. What could go wrong?

Enter my sister. She was and continues to be a devil. She was selfish and rotten from the crib to today, desireing only what will bring her pleasure, laying no foundation for her future. she's brought four children into the world who all continue to suffer under her hand, unless she drops them off at the grandparents to stay again for an unspecified amount of time.

Now all of us were raised "after the manner of happiness". All of my brothers have married and stay with their wives where others would have been divorced. They followed the pattern set down by the parent to live a happy life.

But then theres the daughter who sought her "freedom" as she supposed. She hung out with lowlifes, did plenty of drugs, slept around. All in the name of escapeing a judgemental parent, and making her own way and her own choices. She grew up in the Reagan era of "just say no", She had parents who told her not to drink, not to smoke, not to sleep around. The example set was to obtain a hard working husband who treated her with respect. She lived a life in opposition to to all three.

In the name of freedom and free agency (The abuse of when viewed from the outside looking in) She now has all the children she could have before my mother forced her tubes to be tied. Her husband is nowhere to be seen since he left town with the drug money, leaveing her in the lurch to be beaten and raped by the dealers. She can't get a job becasue who can afford daycare for four? She lives as a single parent, with no prospects, and no one wantign to be around her since she tends to burn all her bridges. Even the Brother who loved her the most and stuck with her when everyone else bailed , she stole from and lied to.

She is a perfect example of standing against the principles of God. An example of our Brother Lucifer and his railing against the Plan of Salvation. Both reaped what they sewed. And so will you.

Gazelam


Dear Gazelam,

I work with people like your sister every day. I teach computer courses at a community college which parterns with Goodwill Industries, and we have our satellite campus at a large Goodwill Industries where there are business offices and classrooms.

It is true that your sister needs to want to help herself...but she also needs to have a positive influence in her life; someone who can convince her to honestly believe that she is worth investing the time to improve on herself.

There are state programs which will help pay for daycare expenses while she gets on her feet and takes some job related courses, as well as starting out on a new job.

It saddened my heart to read your story. I understand that you may be frustrated with her prior actions, particularly if she has stolen from you and/or other family members, but it sounds like you are writing her off as a lost cause.

She is your sister. Please, I beg of you, reconsider your stance.

Her children need her, and she can still live a fulfilling life, and raise those children the way they deserve to be raised.

I'm sending you a PM with my email address.

Please think about corresponding with me. There are seriously options to help her.

Sincerely,

Liz


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:54 am 
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twinkie wrote:
I didn't know there was more than one Jesus!


Hang around, you'll find there's more than one God in LDS.

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 Post subject: Liz
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:11 am 
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I appreciate your help, very kind of you, but...

My sisters a unique case. EVERY bad decision she has ever made, there was someone there to tell her not to do it. My parents have paid for homes, cars, clothing, utilities, time and time and time again to help her. Everytime she gets back on hr feet, she allows every lowlife she has ever known to move in with her, and the cycle starts all over again. This has been a cycle for the last 14 years. Her latest scheme was to shack up with a known loser and move to Illinois. She should be moving back in with my parents here in vegas next month with all four kids in tow, so the cycle can repeat itself.

I was the first to learn to stay far away from her. Ever so slowly the rest of my sibling learnesd to stay far away. My Mother hates her and would just as soon take her in a field and put a bullet in her head. The only reason she's going to move in with my parents is because of my Father, who clings on to the dream of hope.

How do you find sympathy for someone who takes these actions that bring destruction to their life while your telling them not to? Do you feel bad for your kid when they put their hands on somethign hot while your telling them not to? Feel bad for someone whos bit by a snake after you told them not to stick their hand in the cage?

I haven't spoken to her in a long long time, even when I go over to my parents and she's in the same room. But I do get to watch the circus as it plays out. She has no sympathy from me.

Let me share an example:

My parents bought her a car so that she could shuttle the kids back and forth to school. Of coarce this included paying off old tickets and renewing her licence and paying for registration. Withen thirty days she traded in this car for a bag of crack . She and her friends holed up inside the trailer and got high to the point of oblivion, while locking the kids outside the trailer so they could SPEND THE NIGHT IN THE DRIVEWAY I think the oldest was 10 years old.

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 Post subject: Twinkie
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:16 am 
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Theres the Christ known by way of revelation and the teachings of the Prophets.

And theres the Christ known by way of the philosophies and false traditions of Men.

Only one brings salvation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:08 pm 
Quote:
Let me share an example:

My parents bought her a car so that she could shuttle the kids back and forth to school. Of coarce this included paying off old tickets and renewing her licence and paying for registration. Withen thirty days she traded in this car for a bag of crack . She and her friends holed up inside the trailer and got high to the point of oblivion, while locking the kids outside the trailer so they could SPEND THE NIGHT IN THE DRIVEWAY I think the oldest was 10 years old.



How long ago did this happen? Why weren't the children taken away from her at this point? That might have been the shock she needed to get her life back on track.

Has she shown any remorse since then? I think that if she is willing to change that she should be helped. It might mean committing her to rehab while your folks take care of the children. Those kids deserve a stable environment.

My prayers are with you and your family.


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 Post subject: Re: Liz
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
My parents bought her a car so that she could shuttle the kids back and forth to school. Of coarce this included paying off old tickets and renewing her licence and paying for registration. Withen thirty days she traded in this car for a bag of crack . She and her friends holed up inside the trailer and got high to the point of oblivion, while locking the kids outside the trailer so they could SPEND THE NIGHT IN THE DRIVEWAY I think the oldest was 10 years old.


So... why didn't you call CPS and have the children taken away from her? Why not be pro-active instead of simply washing your hands of the situation? Many a mother has cleaned up her life after she realizes the only way to get her children back is to straighten up and fly right.

Your sister's not as unique as you think. I have a sister somewhat like yours, although her drug of choice was always alcohol. Many similarities in their stories, although I don't know if your sister was ever a streetwalking hooker like mine was. My parents used to whatever she needed, until they finally figured out she'd just run through the money, sell the stuff, and buy more booze. Once they figured that out, they made her work in exchange for them paying her rent, buying her car, paying her insurance. She came to live with me during one of her fights with her first ex husband (she has 3). I lived in a single wide trailer with 7 kids, but we moved over and made room for her two children and her. She was there 3 months. During that time, she was sober, employed, and baptised. She wanted what I had, or she thought she did. Turns out she didn't, but that's okay. She remarried the father of her children, moved out, got divorced again, moved on... after a few more disasterous relationships (including being married to a pedofile), she's finally found a good man, who loves her and her children and her only grandchild. He was the bartender at her favorite bar at the time. She's now 47, and has only had her head on straight for the last 10 yrs or so.

Her children raised themselves, except for the month each summer they'd spend with me. How they loved to come to the farm! We thought my sister's lifestyle was going to repeat itself in her children (niece got pregnant as a senior in high school by a drop out friend of her brother's, nephew was dealing drugs on the street), but thanks to some intervention by some of my children, my niece and her husband are doing fine (he learned how to be a husband and a father by watching my sons, learned to read with the help of a daughter, finished his GED, got a certificate in mechanics and now runs a garage; she finished her vet assistant certificate and has a great job; they have one son). My nephew is going fine also (after spending some time in jail, he lives with his sister and her husband, finished his GED and got a certificate in deisel mechanics at the local community college, and is now working full time at a good job, and has a nice girlfriend.) They all have the occasional beer, but they've made something of their lives. I'm very very proud of them, and of the part my children played in helping them out of the hole my sis stuck them in, with her choices.

I had help in my life. Maybe I didn't make the same mistakes my sister made, but still... I had help. I cannot save the world, but I can help one person. And in this case, it pays off over and over.

I taught a RS lesson once on giving. I used the example of a homeless beggar on the street that we'd all seen in front of a local department store. Should we give to him, put money in his hand as we went into the store? A sister in the ward objected to giving him money, because she just knew he'd go and use it to buy booze. Another sister pointed out that giving him money was not for his benefit, but rather it was for ours, that our hearts might grow. Perhaps your heart would grow, were you to find a way to help your sister without judgment, Gazelam. Mine certainly did when I helped mine instead of ignoring her or washing my hands of her, and we still reaping the rewards of the time and effort we in this family all spent helping her and her family. They are part of us now, part of who we are, part of our family lore. We thank God for them every day.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:29 pm 
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Taking the kids away has happened many many times. They are only important to her around tax time.

She showed slight signs of improvement since her move to Illinois. Maybe I'll talk to her again sometime soon. After 14 years of being a low life, I'm not holding my breath, or exposeing my kids to her world.

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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Gazelam wrote:
Taking the kids away has happened many many times. They are only important to her around tax time.

She showed slight signs of improvement since her move to Illinois. Maybe I'll talk to her again sometime soon. After 14 years of being a low life, I'm not holding my breath, or exposeing my kids to her world.


I don't throw people away. It's just not part of who I am. I don't dust off my feet, or wash my hands of them. I do, however, control the environment in which I interact with people. My visits with my sister and her family were on my terms. I was her defender when she was growing up, I believed her when no one else did. Given some of the stuff I couldn't control (which was really bad), it's not surprising she made some really bad choices. But everyone needs a port in a storm. I was her port when her life got overwhelming. She knew I was always there for her, even though our relationship had to be on my terms.

When my sis lived with us, she lived our life: no alcohol, no smoking in the house, she disciplined her children by my standards, regular meals with the family, no cable tv, church on Sunday, normal bedtimes, etc. You don't have to expose your children to her world, but you can expose her to yours. For my sis, she needed a safe place for her children; over the years, I provided that. She needed to be surrounded by love based on the same principles we lived by; I provided that. She and her family needed structure; I provided that. She needed to see that not all men are abusive drunks. My husband provided that. Her children needed to see that kids could have fun without cable tv, late nights, or articifical stimulants; my children provided that. I never gave her money (I never had any to give her). I gave her my love, and I opened my door to her and her family. She never brought her world into mine. She respected that. Maybe your sis is different (and I'm willing to give you that), but I still live by my own creed: people are important, not things. And I never throw people away.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:01 pm 
Gazelam wrote:
Taking the kids away has happened many many times. They are only important to her around tax time.

She showed slight signs of improvement since her move to Illinois. Maybe I'll talk to her again sometime soon. After 14 years of being a low life, I'm not holding my breath, or exposeing my kids to her world.


Hi Gazelam.

I can understand you wanting to protect your children from a harmful environment. However, Harmony is right. You can interact with your sister on your terms, and support her (I'm not talking about financially, but emotionally) on your terms.

You seem to have a lot of bitterness toward your sister. I think that if you really want to have the kind of closeness with Christ that you profess to want, you need to let go of this borderline hate and love your sister, because she is your sister.

To be honest, you're sounding an awful lot like the brother of the prodigal's son. The Savior taught that parable for a reason.

;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:39 pm 
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When she returns and realizes how wrong she's been, then I'll accept her back. But as long as she remains the person she now is, she can stay in the pig pen. (Luke 15:15-16)

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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato


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