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 Post subject: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:17 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
This article is getting heavy circulation in liberal media because it's a way of lording superiority over conservative culture. However, that shouldn't be the primary takeaway here even if you are a liberal. This is actually quite disturbing and is yet another data point in there being a large number of conservatives in America being in an alternative reality bubble that has information sources that are profoundly dishonest, conspiratorial, and/or outright crazy.

As opposed to the ObamaClinton bubble of deception. That same bubble that panicked and came up with Susan Rice led “it’s because of a video” to justify the deaths of Americans. That same bubble that hustled Americans into believing “if you like your doctor - you can keep your doctor”! That same bubble that brought our economy to its knees at 1-2% GDP growth. That same bubble that saw our national debt add $10 Trillion in just 8 years. That same bubble that wasn’t smart enough to recognize the realities of Russia with Hillary’s famous “reset stunt”?

Anyone here complaining about their 401k? Anyone here lost their job specifically because of this administration. Anyone here tired of reading EAllusion’s posts about his knowledge of anything given he’s never created a job in his entire life, lives off of govt entitlements and spends 24/7 on a message board as his life’s achievement?

He and Kevin Graham out to have a show right after that Maddow idiot!

These two are a hoot!


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Looks like Juliann or DCP got offended by this post (probably due to its accuracy) and deleted it from the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Most every conservative to post has suffered vicious personal attacks. As EAllusion gains more power I'm afraid Dr. Shades principle of free speech will diminish if your politics are right of center. Such is the case in most post Mormon forums.

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:59 pm 
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1) No one is "gaining more power."

2) I am right of center in my politics.

3) The very next post moved by me after this one was a liberal poster's personal attack on someone.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:42 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
2) I am right of center in my politics.


What does that mean in practical, relatable terms?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:46 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
2) I am right of center in my politics.


What does that mean in practical, relatable terms?

- Doc


I'm libertarian and libertarians are traditionally considered on the right side of the one dimensional political spectrum. I'm socially liberal and economically conservative. My social liberalism tends to fall more into libertarian stereotypes - like opposition to public smoking bans - than mainstream liberal flavors. While I'm not an automaton, my politics fits squarely within what you'd find in a publication like Reason Magazine.

I'm not sure why you asked this of me when it was Ajax who introduced the vague term in the first place. There certainly are people who are so extreme in their politics that they tend to see anyone either to the left or to the right of them as part of the "other side." To the extent these words have meaning this board is actually filled with right of center people who get smeared as "leftists" by extremists on the board who would be at home posting on Stormfront.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:07 am 
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Ok. So in real, relatable, practical terms you don't believe in banning smoking. That makes you right of center.

Any other examples so we can understand your ideology?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:22 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Ok. So in real, relatable, practical terms you don't believe in banning smoking. That makes you right of center.

Any other examples so we can understand your ideology?

- Doc


I've answered questions like this for you before only for you to insist, even in the same thread, that I have not. I am not a fan of this kind of conservation. If you don't believe me, that's cool.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:35 pm 
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EAllusion has consistently taken libertarian positions for as long as I’ve been reading here. The ongoing attempt to portray him as a liberal is just weird.

Bach’s first post was a blatant personal attack, which was a violation of the clearly stated rules for that forum. It was properly moved (not censored) to the proper forum. The notion that this represented some sort of attack on “conservative” speech is just snowflakiness.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:06 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I've answered questions like this for you before only for you to insist, even in the same thread, that I have not. I am not a fan of this kind of conservation. If you don't believe me, that's cool.


I mean, if you consider this an answer:

Quote:
right side of the one dimensional political spectrum


whatever in the ____ that means.

I believe the above where you posted that you think smoking ought to not be banned is the first time I've seen you post a real, relatable, understandable political position that actually correlates with Libertarianism. Otherwise, we get consistent social Marxism and when called out you describe your political angle, in one way or another, as 'no true Liberal' nonsense.

This is why it's helpful to get an agreement from the parties concerned as to what constitutes left or right because it eliminates the weasley wiggle room that people like to use when getting pinned down on an issue.

Also, I find it odd that a Libertarian is a social worker that advocates taking money from people 'here' and giving it to people over 'there' because *reasons*. It doesn't really jive with the commonly understand ideology of Libertarianism which advocates self-ownership, self-reliability, and not using government to control others.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

whatever in the ____ that means.


It refers to the one dimensional political spectrum. I.E. "right and left." Do you recall anything from political science at all?

Libertarians stereotypically prefer the quadrant model to distinguish themselves from mainstream conservatives' social conservatism. I hold true to that stereotype and would rather rely on that to communicate my ideological positioning, which is safely within the libertarian quadrant. I'm familiar with the uses and limitations of political spectrums, though, and am comfortable talking about them so long as everyone involved understands their limitations.

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I believe the above where you posted that you think smoking ought to not be banned is the first time I've seen you post a real, relatable, understandable political position that actually correlates with Libertarianism. Otherwise, we get consistent social Marxism and when called out you describe your political angle, in one way or another, as 'no true Liberal' nonsense.


Lol. Sure. Pro-tip: If you look at a near by the numbers libertarian and think "social Marxist" (which a smear term popular among online right-wingers, not an actual thing), you're probably not good at political labeling.

Remember when you demanded I describe my general ideology and list every single person I voted for going back years; I actually did so, and you replied, "Then again we have no idea who or what you are since you're too cowardly to actually state unequivocally what your political ideology consists of or who you voted for.

Good times. It suggests you might not be the most honest interlocuter for this kind of thing.

And to think, it wasn't that long ago when Obama was president that some of this board's liberal posters were constantly labeling me as a hardcore right-winger. People just cannot grasp not falling within hack partisan boxes.

Quote:
Also, I find it odd that a Libertarian is a social worker that advocates taking money from people 'here' and giving it to people over 'there' because *reasons*. It doesn't really jive with the commonly understand ideology of Libertarianism which advocates self-ownership, self-reliability, and not using government to control others.


I'm not a social worker, which I've told you upwards of a dozen times, yet you keep repeating it. This does not suggest you are an honest person. Many libertarians advocate for the existence of a social safety net, for example for the cognitively disabled that are involved in my particular subfield. Opposition to all forms of wealth redistribution is a rather extreme position that describes a radical subgroup of libertarians called anarcho-capitalists. And they generally believe, dubiously I would contend, that volunteerism can successfully meet those needs without compelled redistribution. Positions like mine would still exist, but just be exclusively privately funded in their utopia. People who think the cognitively disabled should just be "self-reliant" are ignorant, monsters, or likely both.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:10 pm 
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I suspect he’s more of a consequentialist than rights libertarian. He’s referred to desire utilitarianism in the past. He has the same commitment to individual liberty as, say, a Nozickian libertarian, but views personal liberty as being broader than control over one’s body and possessions. He also applies libertarian principles to the world as it exist now, rather than in the air.

Something like that. He’s nothing like a Marxist.

And do you really not understand what a one dimensional political spectrum is? It’s the line with left on one side and right on the other, with centrism in the center and extremism at the, uh, extremes.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:23 pm 
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There is a distinction between libertarians who are consequentialist and those who are deontological (usually natural rights theorists), but I think that is overblown. I don't think most people who are libertarianish are informed enough about normative ethics to even have thought-out opinions on that front. It is true I am a consequentialist and my opinions better align with famous utilitarian libertarian thinkers like Milton Friedman than the natural rights theorists like Murray Rothbard.

The real rift in libertarianism that is well-understood by libertarians but kind of opaque to outsiders is between libertarian types like those at Reason represented by politicians like Gary Johnson or Justin Amash and paleolibertarians like those at Lew Rockwell represented by politicians like the Pauls.

Paleolibertarians differ in that they tend be:

1) Quite religiously conservative leading to them to endorse some social conservative positions libertarians usually don't, such as opposition to gay marriage or restrictions on abortion access.

2) More isolationist leading to greater friendliness to trade protectionism and opposition to immigration

3) More conspiratorial and closely allied with extremist groups, especially right-wing militias, white supremacists / neoconfederates, and Christian Reconstructionists.

4) Austrian economics fans

5) Related to #4, goldbugs who take as one of their main political goals abolishing the Fed and returning to a gold standard.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Most of the time I've been a libertarian the main area in which I've differed from libertarian culture is its tendency to push industry-friendly pseudoscience in opposition to government regulation. Libertarians traditionally have been a hot-spot for advocating everything from downplaying the risks of smoking to global warming denialism. I've long thought this embarrassing, but the upshot here is libertarian publications have gotten a lot better about this in recent years and it's less of a problem than it used to be.

Libertarian anti-environmentalism was pervasive trash for so long that my sense is that people not closely attuned to what individual libertarians actually think probably still assume that of libertarians when they take on that label.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Well. A one dimensional political spectrum is meaningless until you give it meaning. Since it's virtually impossible to get EAllusion to define what Left means and what Right means, especially correlating that to his own personal ethos and ideology. I have no idea what his 'just right of Center ' is because he refuses to define in real, relatable, practical terms what Left, Center, Right, Liberal, Conservative, Libertarian, or anything along this presumed "one dimensiinal political spectrum" means so we can understand him, you know, since I'm clearly not understanding him despite his dozens of attempts at providing clear, unambiguous, relatable, practical examples.

Wait.

He did say that he thinks smoking shouldn't be banned because he's Libertarian. So, we have that.

Also, EAllusion, if I misunderstood you saying something to the effect that you're a government bureacrat who takes part in taking money from 'these' people and giving it to 'those' people I apologize. Feel free to set the record straight.

- Doc

eta: I see EAllusion is fleshing out some ideas. I'll be sure to read what he says, and ponderize it.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Doc, EAllusion had always fleshed out his ideas. You’ve just been too busy trying to score points to read and understand what he posts.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Libertarians are social liberals. Liberals are social liberals. They agree on most subjects, but there are some niche areas where libertarians and liberals tend to disagree on social issues. I wrote my post assuming some familiarity with those differences and noted that I tend to take the libertarian side when there is a difference. I picked one example to illustrate the point. Liberals tend to favor local laws that restrict smoking in public places. They view it is as a workplace and public safety issue. Libertarians tend to oppose those because they think people should be able to decide for themselves to take on that risk or not. (Note: The actual debate is more nuanced than this, but I can't summarize it without writing more than I want to.)

Libertarians tend to oppose public accommodation laws because they support the right of free association over remedying harmful discrimination. This is a radical position for most Americans and probably one of the most unpopular views I hold.

Libertarians tend to oppose government paternalism in most forms, whereas liberals tend to be friendly to some kinds of it. For example, libertarians like myself oppose seat belt laws while liberals tend to favor them.

Libertarians tend to oppose college campus approaches to allegations of sexual that we see as insufficient to protect due process rights whereas liberals tend to favor them and want to see it expanded.

One of the defining issues of modern libetarianism has been total opposition to the drug war. I view it as one of the most important issues facing the country and have done so for years. Until recently, this was a radical position shared primarily by libertarians and the far left. But we've been winning over hearts and minds basically my entire adult life and survey data suggests liberals, if not liberal politicians, broadly support that project as well now too. Support for legalizing recreational marijuana has gone from the low 20's when I was a teen, which is the political equivalent of being radioactive, to close to 70% now. I can scarcely believe our success in public persuasion.

One subtle difference on drug war issues is libertarians tend to favor decriminalizing or legalizing most or all drugs whereas liberals are more wary of doing this with drugs that have the reputation of being "hard" like heroin or cocaine. Libertarians tend to favor allowing people to harm themselves with illicit substances (see my paternalism comment), and liberals are more open to decriminalizing drugs, but forcing people into treatment rather than simply removing the state from the equation.

It wasn't that long ago when libertarians and the far left supported gay marriage, but mainstream liberals had lukewarm support for compromise positions like civil unions. That ended in a flash.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Also, EAllusion, if I misunderstood you saying something to the effect that you're a government bureacrat who takes part in taking money from 'these' people and giving it to 'those' people I apologize. Feel free to set the record straight.


I don't work for the government. I work for a private organization that provides various services for people with cognitive disabilities. My job requires me to do a variety of things, but primarily I build support planning and teach people who provide support planning for adults with cognitive disabilities and supervise a team of people beneath me doing the same. I specialize in mental illness that is comorbid with intellectual disability. That's why I refer to myself, for example, engaging in and teaching crisis response for mentally ill people. Because that's what I do. I work with social workers and the educational background and skills employed for a position like mine overlaps considerably with what social workers do, but I'm not a social worker. Oddly enough, I've never been a fan of social work and my real educational background is in physiological psych/neuroscience.

The funding to to do this comes from a mixture of private and public sources, but the bulk of it is MA funded because that's how people who aren't rich and have profound disabilities receive medical care in the United States. In that sense, I am contracted by the government to provide a social service. I don't work directly for the government like a police officer or firefighter. I am more like the architect the government hires to design a public building. Posters who are straight-up trolls have run with this fact and routinely described me as a welfare slumlord.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Ms. Jack referred to some struggles she had with an IEP for her son recently. I don't work on the children's side of things, but my job would not be too dissimilar from someone a school would hire from the outside to be in that IEP meeting to offer ideas and subsequently teach people how to execute those ideas if they were adopted. I'm not a straight behavior analyst, but that's the closest comparison I can think of to get a sense of how wrong it is to think of me as a social worker or "government bureaucrat."


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:50 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
I work for a private organization that provides various services for people with cognitive disabilities.
Gosh, I'm sure glad this place offers you a departure from your oeuvre.


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 Post subject: Re: From: The most popular conservative news websites
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:49 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

Also, EAllusion, if I misunderstood you saying something to the effect that you're a government bureacrat who takes part in taking money from 'these' people and giving it to 'those' people I apologize. Feel free to set the record straight.


I don't work for the government. I work for a private organization that provides various services for people with cognitive disabilities. My job requires me to do a variety of things, but primarily I build support planning and teach people who provide support planning for adults with cognitive disabilities and supervise a team of people beneath me doing the same. I specialize in mental illness that is comorbid with intellectual disability. That's why I refer to myself, for example, engaging in and teaching crisis response for mentally ill people. Because that's what I do. I work with social workers and the educational background and skills employed for a position like mine overlaps considerably with what social workers do, but I'm not a social worker. Oddly enough, I've never been a fan of social work and my real educational background is in physiological psych/neuroscience.

The funding to to do this comes from a mixture of private and public sources, but the bulk of it is MA funded because that's how people who aren't rich and have profound disabilities receive medical care in the United States. In that sense, I am contracted by the government to provide a social service. I don't work directly for the government like a police officer or firefighter. I am more like the architect the government hires to design a public building. Posters who are straight-up trolls have run with this fact and routinely described me as a welfare slumlord.


Oh, thanks for taking the time to type this out. Have you explained this before? I thought you were a social worker, but I realize now I've conflated your posting persona with that of The CCC, unless I'm misremembering, and he isn't a social worker either.

What are "MA funds"?

- Doc


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