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 Post subject: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Deliberate?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Quote:
SamueltheLamanite over at MD&D says
The point is that Atheists only promote the things they get right, but forget about the things they get wrong . The things that atheists get right are just lucky hits because Atheism can never be proven.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/699 ... n-atheism/
(It's his comment after Clark Gobel tries to correct some of his misunderstanding - I LIKE Clark, he at least tries realistically)

Apparently, the general Mormon in the crowd doesn't even have to worry about getting anything accurate in order to throw darts and shoot bullets at atheism. Having read just a few atheist books in my time, I haven't seen atheists conveniently forget the things they get wrong. They admit to being wrong a lot actually, as witness Sean Carroll in his book "The Big Picture." (2016 book man, brand new!) They admit there is an enormous amount of knowledge they don't know and perhaps can't know. They have been entirely open to that actually.

I also find it amusing at this point in the conflict of atheism vs God (going strong for millenia actually) that faithists are still saying atheism cannot be proven. Atheism, so far as I can gather it, is not about proving anything. It simply rejects claims that have no evidence or probability to being true. I truly wonder just how cotton pickin long it is going to take faithists to begin to grasp such a simple point and quit twisting the issue. There is nothing in atheism that says it has to prove it's doubt! Do not faithists grasp the silliness of their approach?

For instance - a faithist approachs you and says "Whoa dude! I was fishing yesterday and found a beautiful shining stone, and it glowed! And the longer I looked at it, the more I could see inside of it, until it showed me where the fish were in the river, and I caught my limit in an hour! It's a miracle!" You simply shrug your shoulders about the miracle claim and congratulate him on catching his limit, but he is offended. "Hey! I could not have caught my limit without that shining stone miraculously showing me where to fish." Is it really necessary for you to prove the stone was not miraculous? Not a bit. You simply disbelieve the story, yet congratulate him on his catch. To say then that it is up to you to prove your doubt, or else the miracle stands? I mean sincerely, faithists apparently can't see the problem with that. It has become almost high entertainment to see them completely disfigure and distort it all in order for them to maintain their faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Yes in the case of this poster, it seems to be deliberate. I strongly believe Sam to be a troll critic who mimics the sillier apologetic arguments to show their flaws. In that particular thread he is illustrating the difference between possible and probable, a difference ignored in many apologetic arguments. (See, for example, most of the defenses MG throws up).

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Yes in the case of this poster, it seems to be deliberate. I strongly believe Sam to be a troll critic who mimics the sillier apologetic arguments to show their flaws. In that particular thread he is illustrating the difference between possible and probable, a difference ignored in many apologetic arguments. (See, for example, most of the defenses MG throws up).

I agree with you. Calm actually proved herself on the accurate side by taking him to task for his silly arguments about the stupid probability math he attributes to atheists. But SamueltheLamanite then makes my day when he says
Quote:
Atheists don't do the math correctly because they argue improbable events such as explosions creating universes happen, If you think explosions creating universes is probable just ask Elder Nelson. Atheists don't believe in low probability things like the fine tuning of the Universe. Therefore the atheists do the Math wrong. I don't know who is Stephen Dawkins, but his name sounds familiar.

HOWLING LAUGHTER!!! I mean you can't make this stuff up. That is, unless he is deliberately trying to pretend he is stupider than dirt. Calm had used Stephen Hawking as the example, and SamueltheLamanite can't even get the name right. Perhaps it is a deliberate attempt of a guy trying to show how stupid apologists are against atheism, but in this case, it backfires. On the other hand, the general view is probably more accurate than not. I continue to read that it is up to the atheists to prove their case. They don't have a case, they simply don't accept faithists case. Well, in that case, the atheists case is doubting. Do they have to prove their doubt? That's easy, they just don't believe the faithist case. :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Philo, I'm just curious and mean no disrespect when I ask: why does this question appear to vex you so much? It's pretty obvious that there's no god in the traditional sense, and the non-traditional versions seem to be an admixture of quasi-deism occasionally infused with pantheism. It's a concoction that may be real but is untestable and ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't seem to interest you at all, but your posts lately seem deeply concerned with engaging the traditional view of god, which you also don't believe in, if I understand you. I think we'd agree there is no such thing as that god.

So why bother tackling the silly pseudo-arguments of those who maintain the opposite, and with such detail and consistency? This isn't a "why did you leave the Church but can't it leave it alone" question, but instead I'm wondering if all this activity is a sign that you are doubting your doubts or feel you have to justify your position to former allies, who can be quite dickish and probably feel betrayed. It must be tough being so publicly on the other side of the issue. You invested so much into supporting claims that you now totally reject and at least on this board you seem as vociferous on this side as you were on that.

At the end of the day though, I have never really seen the point of debating atheism. There isn't a god, and its on the people who claim otherwise to prove us wrong with some credible evidence. Until that day comes, I just don't care, but maybe interest in these arguments, like interest in Mormonism generally, is just a question of taste.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:54 pm 
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No offense taken at all Symmachus.

I suspect this vexes me because I really want there to be a God, and I really want there to be eternal life.

I am sold on the concept and hope against hope that somehow, someway, it is a reality and I can tap into it, somehow.

Buuuuuut.... the evidence just isn't there, and the logic and arguments no longer hold for me, and its disappointing. I am hoping someone can come along and show there is something to it. It is my bias, and so I argue very strongly against it on purpose, because for something so big, so grand, it has to be real, and solid. Buuuuuuuuuuutttt....

It unfortunately just doesn't appear to be. And that rankles me.
Perhaps it is just taste for a subject, and empathy because atheism is so misunderstood and I find it is stronger than I had assumed, so I am trying it out to see if there are fatal weaknesses to it. All I see is fatal weaknesses against the faithists who fight against it.

Other than that, I find studying atheism has a huge side benefit for me personally. I was so enamored with apologetics I never did get into studying a lot of other subjects, and atheism has and is teaching me more about how to logically think, to learn other science subjects I probably wouldn't have otherwise with greater care, things like that. So, I LIKE it for many reasons. And I like to test it, and at least try to tweak those who keep coming up with such inanities against atheism. I am trying to say, "Come on man! Come up with something a little better than that.

Yes, I do doubt my doubts. I do doubt my faith, and I continue trying to find ways out that may help me learn more. The skeptical approach virtually forces me to try and learn more in areas I am so weak in and it's a humiliating thing. In the meantime, another benefit is getting involved in many things in life I probably never would have when I was an apologist. I love hunting (I got both my tags filled this year, my first year hunting big game, both my elk and my buck - a beautiful three point!). I am making new friends, so all this doubt and changing of my mind based on both lack of evidence in some areas, and evidence in others, as well as logical and rational argument on both sides is making me new friends I would have otherwise not made.

Overall it's a good thing, but yes, I continue mucking through it. It probably bores too many here, and for that I apologize, but I am working through my own psychological devastation, and doing a rather poor job of it I suppose.

All the best!

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Philo, I think this board is a pretty good place to hash things out with oneself. I often use the board that way. There are lots of good and smart folks here who help me clarify my own thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Philo, I think this board is a pretty good place to hash things out with oneself. I often use the board that way. There are lots of good and smart folks here who help me clarify my own thinking.


Yes, it most certainly is!

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:49 pm 
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I think as a believer that I projected the certainty I felt I had onto opposing propositions and allowed myself to be arrogant about my more certain certainties. Yet, all the while, I overestimated the value of certainty and appreciated not others' relative comfort with not knowing.

OF COURSE if knowing reigns supreme, theists can always feel they win. The problem with that is that knowing gets in the way of learning. Thus, getting things wrong and being ignorant can be more intelligent if we admit we're capable of both.


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:10 pm 
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This is what I picture when I read something like this:

Quote:
Atheism teaches that explosions out of nothing create universes and libraries.

Quote:
explosions out of nothing create universes and libraries.

Quote:
universes and libraries

Quote:
and libraries

Image

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Symmachus wrote:
Philo, I'm just curious and mean no disrespect when I ask: why does this question appear to vex you so much?...This isn't a "why did you leave the Church but can't it leave it alone" question, but instead I'm wondering if all this activity is a sign that you are doubting your doubts or feel you have to justify your position to former allies...

There may be a bit of that.

It's hard to let go of something that you have been inculcated with since Primary. And I think that there is always going to be this primal question, "Is there or isn't there a God?" Even if you have convinced yourself that there isn't a creator/God.

The question really never completely goes away. In my opinion anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I think as a believer that I projected the certainty I felt I had onto opposing propositions and allowed myself to be arrogant about my more certain certainties. Yet, all the while, I overestimated the value of certainty and appreciated not others' relative comfort with not knowing.
An astute observation, Meadowchik. We see that in this very thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Overall it's a good thing, but yes, I continue mucking through it. It probably bores too many here, and for that I apologize, but I am working through my own psychological devastation, and doing a rather poor job of it I suppose.

Not boring at all, and I agree with Res Ipsa that this is a great place to explore one's curiosities, questions, and obsessions. I don't always have much to say because, as I mentioned, I'm just not hooked by this question...I guess I'm just too busy with Jaredite linguistics :wink: . Anyway, thanks for the reply; it is interesting how seriously people do take the question of god, and that is just something that is so remote from my own experience. I sometimes feel like the critics of us critics are right, at least in my case: I never really believed it. It is sometimes hard for me to understand that mindset.

mentalgymnast wrote:
It's hard to let go of something that you have been inculcated with since Primary. And I think that there is always going to be this primal question, "Is there or isn't there a God?" Even if you have convinced yourself that there isn't a creator/God.

The question really never completely goes away. In my opinion anyway.

I mean no offense, MG, but replace "God" with "Santa Claus" and you can see how that sentence reads to me. As I replied to Philo above, I don't think I ever really believed in a god, but I can tell you that my experience was the opposite of yours: for a time, I desperately tried to convince myself there was a god, but it didn't work. The thought that god doesn't exist requires no convincing for some of us. When I was a teenager, it really used to grate on a bishop that I wouldn't say "I know the Church is true," which to me would have been dishonest and a very serious claim to lie about. He and some of our other priesthood leaders used to do these challenges and competitions, and I got roped into one on a fast Sunday, where we were all supposed to go up and bear our testimonies. When it was my turn, I just said, "I love my family, and I hope this Church is true, in the name of Jesus Christ..." etc. Didn't go over well. At the time, I thought it was a good compromise, but looking back, I see that it must have seemed rude and punkish. I also see that he was kind of an ass for fomenting peer pressure on anxious kid. Perhaps he meant well, but if nothing else, it reflects my experience that I really had no inclination to believe any of this stuff and needed to be convinced and pressured.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Hey Symmachus! :smile:

Symmachus wrote:
There isn't a god, and its on the people who claim otherwise to prove us wrong with some credible evidence.

It is?

Image

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Symmachus! :smile:

Symmachus wrote:
There isn't a god, and its on the people who claim otherwise to prove us wrong with some credible evidence.

It is?

Image

Peace,
Ceeboo

Come on Ceeboo, at least come up to speed a bit will ya? Of course it's up to those who claim there is a God to show the evidence. The rest of us just shrug our shoulders as much as if you were to soberly declare Frodo exists and is real.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Hola Philo! :smile:

Philo Sofee wrote:
Come on Ceeboo, at least come up to speed a bit will ya?

Okay, here I come!

Image

Quote:
Of course it's up to those who claim there is a God to show the evidence.

I have no evidence (Sorry)

I do believe that there is a God though.

Do you pause, at all, when you hear someone say "there isn't a God?" FWIW, I do.

It strikes me as a certainty in an arena where "certainty" - of any kind - is an extremely difficult position to take.

So yeah, I never knew that it was on me (a mere believer in God) to prove anything to anyone - let alone prove to an entire community of divers people, who self identify as atheists, that they are wrong.

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Do you pause, at all, when you hear someone say "there isn't a God?" FWIW, I do.

It is, actually more accurate to have said there isn't any evidence for your claimed God, to be sure..... of that, we (who are looking into it) are all quite certain.....

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Ceeboo wrote:
...an entire community of divers people...

Image

Don't keep them waiting, Ceebs. They have a pressing matter to attend to. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:00 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:
...an entire community of divers people...

Image

Don't keep them waiting, Ceebs. They have a pressing matter to attend to. ;)

Bravo, honor.

Well done, my friend! :smile:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:05 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Of course it's up to those who claim there is a God to show the evidence.

Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:55 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Of course it's up to those who claim there is a God to show the evidence.

Why?

I think the core of this is that human beings have used god claims for persuasion or control of other people. While certainly no one owes anyone an explanation for their beliefs, people who being asked or forced to do something because of another's beliefs are owed an explanation and often even proof for those beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism Continues to Be Misunderstood - Is This Delibera
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 am 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Of course it's up to those who claim there is a God to show the evidence.

Why?

Ha, that is, if they are in a conversation and are intent on converting someone. Other than that, if it's never brought up or worried about then I agree.

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