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 Post subject: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:40 pm 
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I think the thing that hits home for me regarding this mass shooting is just how nonchalant I felt about it. I was like, "Welp. There's another one."

Think about that for a moment. I'm numb to the reality of babies getting their heads blown off. Literally. The shooter would go down the aisle, would find a screaming baby, and then blow its brains out.

And I'm numb to it.

- Doc


Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Also, if I'm being honest I asked myself, and I didn't mean to, it just popped into my brain, "Is this a white church or a black church? Is the shooter a Muslim or another white guy?" I don't know what those questions say about me, or about the country. They were intrusive. I didn't need to formulate these instantaneous thoughts that seemed to form independent of a cognitive process. I suppose if these things are patterns, inescapable patterns, then it's natural the brain does its quick once or twice over.

I know the default is to point out Chicago, but there's a sort of logic behind those shootings. You're controlling turf. There's money involved. It's gangland business. It's control over resources. Mass shootings, though. That's straight up nihilism. But there's also something else that might be correlated, but I'm not sure. I guess I could start googling once I post my thought. How many of these mass shooters have been on some form of psychotropic drug? If we're talking about regarding gun control and potential correlative danger perhaps that's something to consider.

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I think the thing that hits home for me regarding this mass shooting is just how nonchalant I felt about it. I was like, "Welp. There's another one."

Think about that for a moment. I'm numb to the reality of babies getting their heads blown off. Literally. The shoot was going down the aisle, would find a screaming baby, and blow its brains out.

And I'm numb to it.

- Doc


That's not outrageous. Kneeling athletes are outrageous. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Googling...

https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-10-05- ... -guns.html

Quote:
• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Missing from list… 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds….

• What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21…… killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Arizona?

• What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24….. killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?

• What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or?

• What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?


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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
• What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?


According to reports, his mother cooperated with him discontinuing meds.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Quote:
• What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24….. killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?


According to reports, SSRI's. No idea if he was actually taking them at the time of the shootings.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Cam I don't want to re-copy your entire list, but I do want to make comment about a couple of things related to it.

Paxil. Some years back, a warning came out about Paxil, that it wasn't to be used in young adolescents due to the possibility of it producing suicidal thoughts. I want to say, the advice was to not RX it for patients under the age of 18. I'm only aware of this because Paxil was the one thing that worked to treat symptoms for a family member of mine and on account of the warning, they had to switch meds--took a while to get the right combo in that case. I don't know if the warning is still on Paxil, but LOOK at how many times it shows up on the list. I thought that was worth commenting on here.

I know for a fact that treating mental illness with medications is a crapshoot. What works for one, produces terrible (even life threatening) side effects in another. Some folks have great success treating depression with one med, while the same med could produce hallucinations, panic attacks, or ideation of suicide in another. All kinds of symptoms are possible with the meds.

We can't take a list like that and draw a line directly to the medications in an effort to target the medications themselves because there are too many variables to contend with. We don't know how long the patient was on the medication, who was following their meds professionally and did the patient report symptoms, we don't know if there was therapy involved, and we don't know when and if they stopped taking the meds or if they were taking them as prescribed, if they were using street drugs in combination or where they self medicating with alcohol.

Look in on the circumstances involving Adam Lanza. He was RX'd medications. His mother allowed him to stop taking them AND gave him full access to her legally owned and registered weapons. There's two danger points right there. 1)We don't know if medications were helping him and we don't know if he discontinued medications abruptly--if he did, that alone can produce symptoms. 2) And she gave him access to weapons.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that for all the people who raised a stink about the law being shot down that would prevent folks diagnosed with and disabled by mental illness AND using the SSDI rolls to identify them--perhaps NONE of the mass shooters on your lengthy list would have been stopped had that law gone into effect. NONE.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Planned Parenthood shooter, Robert Dear, age 57. Killed 3 people. So far as I know, no medications on board.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Sorry, I'm now randomly picking off entries to the list that Cam supplied.

Quote:
Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.


That's an off-label use for Zoloft. I'm not saying I agree with it. In the above, you can't help but notice this, right?

Quote:
Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug.


I mean, the intention is to draw attention to the doc upping the dose, right? Guess what? It probably doesn't matter and why doesn't it matter? Because therapeutic levels of a drug aren't always reached at the lowest dose right out of the gate. Increasing the dose often leads to achieving the appropriate therapeutic level.

That's why I said it's a crapshoot.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Natural news is not a reliable source of information. I wouldn’t trust the list without verification.

ETA: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/google ... fake-news/

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Cam I don't want to re-copy your entire list, but I do want to make comment about a couple of things related to it.

Paxil. Some years back, a warning came out about Paxil, that it wasn't to be used in young adolescents due to the possibility of it producing suicidal thoughts. I want to say, the advice was to not RX it for patients under the age of 18. I'm only aware of this because Paxil was the one thing that worked to treat symptoms for a family member of mine and on account of the warning, they had to switch meds--took a while to get the right combo in that case. I don't know if the warning is still on Paxil, but LOOK at how many times it shows up on the list. I thought that was worth commenting on here.

I know for a fact that treating mental illness with medications is a crapshoot. What works for one, produces terrible (even life threatening) side effects in another. Some folks have great success treating depression with one med, while the same med could produce hallucinations, panic attacks, or ideation of suicide in another. All kinds of symptoms are possible with the meds.

We can't take a list like that and draw a line directly to the medications in an effort to target the medications themselves because there are too many variables to contend with. We don't know how long the patient was on the medication, who was following their meds professionally and did the patient report symptoms, we don't know if there was therapy involved, and we don't know when and if they stopped taking the meds or if they were taking them as prescribed, if they were using street drugs in combination or where they self medicating with alcohol.

Look in on the circumstances involving Adam Lanza. He was RX'd medications. His mother allowed him to stop taking them AND gave him full access to her legally owned and registered weapons. There's two danger points right there. 1)We don't know if medications were helping him and we don't know if he discontinued medications abruptly--if he did, that alone can produce symptoms. 2) And she gave him access to weapons.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that for all the people who raised a stink about the law being shot down that would prevent folks diagnosed with and disabled by mental illness AND using the SSDI rolls to identify them--perhaps NONE of the mass shooters on your lengthy list would have been stopped had that law gone into effect. NONE.


Yeah, correlation isn't causation. I mean you make good points. I have to wonder, like anything else, is that it's a complex issue. You take people with perhaps a mental disorder, medication that can cause some sort of reaction at a certain percentage rate, and the add in a healthy dose of disassociation that we feel thanks to our immersion in social media, virtual reality, and toxic interactions on the WWW... Who knows? Maybe it's not a bridge too far for someone who plays violent first person shooter games, has a disorder, takes medications, feels isolated, and is basically socially disassociated with reality to shoot real people just to feel real.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Natural news is not a reliable source of information. I wouldn’t trust the list without verification.


I was just googling around the 'net. The list isn't meant to be exhaustive or, I dunno, peer-reviewed. I suppose my position is that we need to move away from the 2nd Amendment debate and toward analysis, assessment, and study that results in pragmatic problem solving.

It won't happen, hence my own personal detachment from the act. What can one do? I only have so much emotional capital to expend, and after the 30th terror attack, whatever their motivations were, it just isn't there any more. I mean it's gotten to the point where I was wondering why the guy in Vegas only managed a 58-person body count. Think about that. I was like, "Welp. If I were that guy I'd probably have laid out the weapons this way or that way, done this or that to barricade the room, and laid down fire at this or that point."

Like, what the ____?

I feel sympathetic for these people. I can imagine being on the receiving end of a lunatic's weapon. But, I suppose, because nothing changes and the next mass shooting, terrorist attack, or whatever is just another news cycle away COMBINED with the fact that it seems most of the country is fine with it, one can't help to intellectualize the incident.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:

As for the psychology of these mentally ill people, I have no suggestions. If there are ways to be better about identifying them, that could be a win. Doing it in a constitutional way is hard though. In the case of this guy however, I feel like it should have been easy. I mean we're learning now that he literally broke out of a mental institution. And the dude was even ordering guns while in the institution. He should have been flagged from the FBI background database, but they green lit him. A huge government snafu.


You can thank the USAF for this one.

Quote:
How much of this is related to the home? It makes me think about the state of public school / institutionalized education. A lot of teachers in my family and I hear so many horror stories. There are some pretty awful home lives these days. The rule more than the exception it feels like. Combined with social media and the low attention spans, it's a perfect storm. What do you do about it though? It can be argued, and I do argue, that a lot of these problems have been caused by government schooling, shifting what should be parental responsibilities to the state. A collusive arrangement with industrial interests. But now that this precedent has been set, how do you scale it back? Ideally we would do things like cut the school day in half. Increase the age when kids start attending. Stop sapping the life out of them with hours of homework after an already long day. Etc. But, the modern economy and workforce is designed around the current 8-5 hours. And if you do nothing the problem gets worse and becomes an even bigger burden on the rest of us all. And so many single parent situations these days. I kind of think it's an unsolvable problem.



I think that the majority of it is related to the home. We've been allowing our children to be raised in institutions by people who don't love them (in the way that a parent loves them) beginning at 6 weeks of age since back in the 80's.

If I had to spell out exactly what I think about this and why I think it, I'd make myself sick inside because there's not a good solution. Not one solution, anyway.

Listen, single parents need to do what they need to do. No question about it, however, if I had to throw a dart and hit something, I would say that America's children are being raised from infancy forward in institutions and in exchange for the quest for the almighty buck and the material "wealth" that it provides.

But don't go by me. I don't have strong feelings or thoughts about it either way.

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 pm 
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1. The "second wave" feminist movement of the 1960's.

2. The development of institutionalized child care programs in the 1980's.

3. The dwindling opportunity and time for authentic play and nature deprivation in early childhood. This is a description of authentic play and nature rich experiences in early childhood: viewtopic.php?p=1084335#p1084335

4. The commercialization of education, including early childhood education.

5. The fact that the day care babies of the mid 1980's (who were largely deprived of the time and opportunity for authentic play and nature rich experiences) are now our teachers and parents. They may/may not recognize what authentic play is or make time for it in a child's daily experience.

6. The quest for the goddamn almighty dollar and a culture that wants it all, wants to do it all, and wants it NOW. Emphasis on things vs people. A mobile society where parents lack familial support and mentoring in general.

7. ____ parental leave standards in the US that force two and single working parents to enroll their child in in institutionalized child care programs at age 6 weeks for fear of losing their positions.

8. Lack of information regarding socio-economic and educational support for single parents to help them best meet the needs of their family with attention to best meeting both the short and long term needs of the child.

9. Lack of parent education regarding child development.

10. Children who are forced into institutionalized programs at an early age or for too long periods of time, forcing them to detach just enough to survive and manage in an environment where the child:adult ratio is inadequate.

11. A public educational system that is so goddamn focused on test score outcomes instead of learning experiences.

12. A public educational system that pressures teachers to produce test scores instead of learners, for fear of losing their positions and who then, pressure children to learn how to pass tests.

13. A public educational system that places greater emphasis on amassing material resources instead of rich content learning experiences.

14. Children who feel isolated, pressured, stressed, and whose parents have little time for relaxed and unstructured time with them.

15. Children who bully other children because they feel all of the above in #14.

16. Children who are fearful in their own neighborhoods, don't know their own neighbors, don't have a sense that "the village" is there for them and that they "belong".

17. Middle and high school (sometimes elementary) students who feel isolated, marginalized, whose basic human needs (Maslow's hierarchy of human needs) aren't met who turn to peers, negative and unhealthy ways to get attention and substance abuse.

18. Parents whose attention is focused on family financial gain, who are stressed trying to "have it all"--"be it all"--and "getting it all", that they don't recognize when their children are in trouble. Yes, I realize that children hide their depression, etc.

19. Parents, educators, and medical professionals who think a diagnosis and a pill fixes everything.

20. Inadequate mental health care resources and treatment centers. Lack of beds, lack of follow up, lack of education for patients, families, and public education regarding mental health. You name it and I believe it'll only get worse with whatever new health care insurance system is adopted.

21. Irresponsible gun owners who leave their loaded weapons fully accessible to family members, guns and ammunition all in the same place convenient for pick up and use by any family member.

22. ____, ____, inadequate gun control regulations.

Well, that's mostly my side of the story. I'm sure others can add their take as well and round out the picture a bit more.

I'm sure I've offended someone. I'm pretty darn sure that I don't care. I didn't supply the above list to debate anyone. I supplied it so that I could vent because ____ it.

Boils down to a generalized lack of true empathy.

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:


Adding to your list I'd also add some points drawing from Wonder of Boys and arguments from people like Camille Paglia re the stigmatization of male culture. A lot of boys these days end up with this strong resentment and hatred of women.


EXACTLY. I'm pretty sure that you and I have discussed Gurian in the past.

We generally make boys feel like ____ about themselves. No question about it.

Have I mentioned a college class that I took (for the program I worked for, not for me personally really) that was devoted to a "new" social learning program for ECE :rolleyes: , where the facilitator asked for volunteers to share a challenging behavioral problem from their classrooms and all but ONE was about male students???

I dove right into the middle of that with comment. Trust me, I did. With my first line administrator whispering to me "Go ahead, Jersey. Go ahead." She knew I'd do it. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: From: Shooting in Texas Hits Home
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:50 am 
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Jersey Girl:

It is a complex problem for sure. Just one example; In our modern culture we teach our young and old men that their only value is the job money they bring in. Then when the job market inevitably changes those men are left without the respect not only of others, but of themselves. A bad situation just made worse. It is no surprise some can't emotionally handle it.


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