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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
The folks here demonizing Kelly don't understand what it's like to be in a war.

I'll join in condemning Gen. Kelly's comments. And yeah, I know what it's like to be in a war.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
And if it was about slavery, that would have been news to the men in both the north and the south. That is not why they were there.


For many of them, slavery was indeed why they were there.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
If that IS why they were there, which is ultimately the point Kelly is speaking to, manipulated by a dictator and wielded as chess pieces in some kind of social engineering game, it only raises even harder questions.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying that Lincoln was this dictator?


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:
I'll join in condemning Gen. Kelly's comments. And yeah, I know what it's like to be in a war.

Let me get this straight. You claim, as someone who has served, that you would despotically send men to die under false pretenses to serve what you, Morley, arbitrarily believe to be the greater good? And then going even a step further than this, a century later, you'd condemn someone like Kelly, because they interpreted the history of your behavior in a nuanced way? I flatly don't believe you.


I'm saying that the continuation of hundreds of years of institutionalized slavery where millions of lives were destroyed was worse than the war to end slavery where millions died.

What is it that you don't believe?

And what is it that's wrong about condemning someone who I think is mistaken?


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
You're just virtue signaling. But again, I do not care to debate the history. If my interpretation puts me under your condemnation along with Kelly, so be it.


I have no idea what "virtue signaling" is.

If you "do not care to debate the history," why are you expounding on it? I'm confused.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:
For many of them, slavery was indeed why they were there.

As worded, this is a meaningless statement. You're just virtue signaling. But again, I do not care to debate the history. If my interpretation puts me under your condemnation along with Kelly, so be it.




My comment was in response to you saying that the Civil War was not about slavery. See below.

Water Dog wrote:
And if it was about slavery, that would have been news to the men in both the north and the south. That is not why they were there.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Or perhaps I misunderstand you, Water Dog. Please help me out.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Morley wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
And if it was about slavery, that would have been news to the men in both the north and the south. That is not why they were there.


For many of them, slavery was indeed why they were there.


Lol. You actually believe the Union soldiers were idealists?

This is too funny.

When did you serve, Morley? I hope you were Army!

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

When did you serve, Morley? I hope you were Army!


It was a long time ago. I was a Ranger-qualified LRRP in Vietnam.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Morley wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

When did you serve, Morley? I hope you were Army!


It was a long time ago. I was a Ranger-qualified LRRP in Vietnam.


Nice. 95-15 here.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
There is much I'd love to say about this as the civil war is a nerd topic for me. But at the same, this seems to be less about the history and more about modern libs doing what they do. I need to be disciplined and not get sucked in. I'm certainly no historian, but I have read more than a few books about the civil war and Lincoln. I'm one of those who is persuaded by the arguments that the war was not about slavery. Sure, it was a proximate cause, but it was not the ultimate cause. Based on what has already been said, I don't think there would be any point in going there though. For those who have an interest, I'm going to just leave this here. Do yourself a favor and give it a listen. Two Ph.D. historians nerding out on this Kelly statement and liberal revisionism and group think in general. I cannot possibly say it better than them.

http://tomwoods.com/ep-1033-was-gen-kel ... civil-war/


This link is two neoconfederates talking on a neoconfederate's radio show. This doesn't exactly help make the argument that General Kelly wasn't repeating neoconfederate arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
There you go again. Assigning a position to me and then arguing against it.

Why not let the Confederacy go with the caveat all American territories will be added to the Union? Avoid war. Support the underground railroad. Find ways to negotiate them back into the union. Pay for freed slaves, offer to send immigrants to them as a wage class, so on and so forth. I did address it, but you conveniently ignored the suggestions.

Anyway. You totes didn't even attempt to explain yourself, other than 'war is morally preferable'. You've basically lost any and all moral decency with that position.

- Doc


The idea that risking the possibility of war is morally preferable to passively allowing millions of people to exist in the brutality of slavery in your own nation isn't some abhorrent outlier view. It's common wisdom, so I find you treating it like a confession of raping puppies for fun to be disingenuous. At least own the fact that you are the one offering the contrarian take. Lincoln is almost universally recognized by American historians as America's greatest president for the specific decisions you are criticizing. I don't think he is above criticism, but understand where you are coming from at least. Likewise, you posting pictures of the horrors of war on soldiers and civilian populations, while going dark on arguably much worse consequences of human bondage of 10-15% of the country's population, also appears quite disingenuous.

The Confederacy never, ever would've gone for limitation of its own territorial expansion. The conflicts that led to the civil war were entirely over their right to expand slavery and its concomitant political and cultural associations into Western territories. If we are pursuing an appeasement strategy here to avoid war at all costs, part of the costs are going to be ceding at least the Mason-Dixon line Westward. Given the cultural and political differences in the two new nations, counting on a reconciliation seems dodgy at best and you have to simply accept that your appeasement strategy was accepting a good likelihood of indefinite slavery. It also would risk future military aggression from the South, which would be in a stronger position the more time they had to consolidate, and that risk would definitely go up if the North was perceived as deliberately undermining the slave-based economy.

Otherwise, great plan.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:12 am 
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Morley wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
You're just virtue signaling. But again, I do not care to debate the history. If my interpretation puts me under your condemnation along with Kelly, so be it.


I have no idea what "virtue signaling" is.

If you "do not care to debate the history," why are you expounding on it? I'm confused.


Water Dog uses “virtue signaling” as a thought stopping cliché. He applies it to any expression of values that he wishes to dismiss rather than seriously engage with.

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​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:42 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Water Dog uses “virtue signaling” as a thought stopping cliché. He applies it to any expression of values that he wishes to dismiss rather than seriously engage with.


He is not the only one.

Sooner or later someone is going to try to deal with the less convenient bits of the Sermon on the Mount by sticking the 'virtue signalling' label on it.

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I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:59 am 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:41 am 
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Water Dog -

Neoconfederates are an affiliation of people and organizations that engage in historical revisionism to portray the Confederate States' actions in a positive light. They tend to have a close association with white supremacist groups and, at the fringe, Southern nationalist movements.

Thomas E. Woods, the source you are citing, is probably the most famous neoconfederate in the country. He's a paleolibertarian best known for advocacy of Lew Rockwell style libertarianism and confederate historical arguments. Kevin Gutzman, his guest, is a fellow neoconfederate closely associated with him. Both of the people whose credentials you talked up are well-known cranks, but that's neither here nor there to the observation I made.

An early part of this thread involves myself and others pointing out General Kelly's comments seem dependent on or dovetail with neoconfederate apologetics. He was sharing the "Lost Cause" version of the civil war. You popping in later to defend them by linking Thomas E. Woods and Kevin Gutzman defending his comments bolsters that observation, not detracts from it. It's like someone complaining that someone is making arguments straight from Nazi propaganda and you popping in 4 pages later to defend it by linking a sterling defense of those arguments from the Daily Stormer.

This observation doesn't address the merits of those arguments, but it does come into tension with the people in this thread who are interested in arguing that General Kelly was offering a sophisticated, nuanced take on the civil war rather than vaguely referring to the thinking of "Lost Cause" civil war revisionism.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:56 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Both of the people whose credentials you talked up are well-known cranks, but that's neither here nor there to the observation I made.


From Wiki:

Quote:
Woods holds an A.B. from Harvard University, and M.Phil. and Ph.D. from Columbia University, all in history.


I dunno. This kind of seems to be his area of expertise. And despite EAllusion's typical assignation of character and intent Woods views himself as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Woods#Views

eta: According to Wiki Woods is a co-founder of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_the_South

Quote:
The League of the South is a white nationalist and white supremacist organization,[1][2][3][4] headquartered in Killen, Alabama, which states that its ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic".


If that's the case I retract my statement above and condemn Mr. Woods for his insane ____.

- Doc


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