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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:13 am 
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Maybe the North makes the South an offer it can't refuse?

In order to avoid war, the murder of hundreds of thousands through trauma, shock, disease, starvation, and depravity the North offers the South something along the lines of a transition deal?

Like. Ok. Instead of spending blood and treasure on a conflict neither one of us should want why don't we pay you for each one of your slaves, and then over the next 100 years we transition to a compensation based economy the North will pay your workers' wages for 100 years. So, you owners get to keep your assets, you import workers rather than slaves, the North will foot the bill, and we transition to an economy that will preserve the Union in perpetuity.

When the Irish get off the boat instead of getting a gun and uniform they get a train ticket and a job? Maybe instead of supporting the Africans murdering one another and selling off their captives we promote opportunity for free Africans who want to start a new life?

Maybe that's what General Kelly meant when talking about compromise? Maybe studying the past and suggesting alternative resolutions for the civil war could, in fact, make us think about the present and our way ahead? Instead of shaming General Kelly why not let the man speak and perhaps we learn to look at past and current issues from a different viewpoint that lends itself to pragmatism and problem solving?

I dunno. Compromise is a reality since we're not all a bunch of Maoists. Kinda makes sense to me to compromise. Pragmatically speaking.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:27 am 
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The part I'm not really understanding in all this is:

Perhaps John Kelly really did have some nuanced approach and thought process to his comments. Maybe he has spent a ton of time sitting around thinking about these things. Maybe he was referencing how our understanding of past partisanship and divide translates to our current scenario and we can learn from it.

If all of the above is true, why didn't he come out and clarify after the public outcry? I don't think the Chief of Staff has much trouble finding a podium to speak from. Certainly he could've expounded further to show us what his position really is.

I think when you view the Lee/Civil War comments while considering his willingness to double-down on a flat out lie about Congresswoman Wilson it isn't that big of a leap to assume he just spoke up about something he really didn't understand all that well and misspoke. And given his past behavior (and the success of his boss) he just refuses to admit the wrong.

Cam I think your desire for a better outcome is noble and I especially appreciate your personal experiences on the abject horror that is war, but I think you may be giving Kelly just a touch too much credit on this one.

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Last edited by Xenophon on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:44 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
when you have a thoughtful man suggesting that perhaps we could've avoided the crime of war

When did we have that?

Oh, you mean Kelly. I didn't realise you were being ironic.

Xenophon wrote:
Perhaps John Kelly really did have some nuanced approach and thought process to his comments. Maybe he has spent a ton of time sitting around thinking about these things. Maybe he was referencing how our understanding of past partisanship and divide translates to our current scenario and we can learn from it.

If all of the above is true, why didn't he come out and clarify after the public outcry? I don't think the Chief of Staff has much trouble finding a podium to speak from. Certainly he could've expounded further to show us what his position really is.

I think when you view the Lee/Civil War comments while considering his willingness to double-down on a flat out lie about Congresswoman Wilson it isn't that big of a leap to assume he just spoke up about something he really didn't understand all that well and misspoke. And given his past behavior (and the success of his boss) he just refuses to admit the wrong.

That about nails it. Kelly's off-the cuff opinion on matters of this kind is not worth a pitcher of warm spit, to be frank.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Instead of shaming General Kelly why not let the man speak

Who's stopping him? You are surely not telling us he is a snowflake who needs a safe space to tell us what he thinks?

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:55 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Maybe the North makes the South an offer it can't refuse?

In order to avoid war, the murder of hundreds of thousands through trauma, shock, disease, starvation, and depravity the North offers the South something along the lines of a transition deal?

Like. Ok. Instead of spending blood and treasure on a conflict neither one of us should want why don't we pay you for each one of your slaves, and then over the next 100 years we transition to a compensation based economy the North will pay your workers' wages for 100 years. So, you owners get to keep your assets, you import workers rather than slaves, the North will foot the bill, and we transition to an economy that will preserve the Union in perpetuity.

When the Irish get off the boat instead of getting a gun and uniform they get a train ticket and a job? Maybe instead of supporting the Africans murdering one another and selling off their captives we promote opportunity for free Africans who want to start a new life?

Maybe that's what General Kelly meant when talking about compromise? Maybe studying the past and suggesting alternative resolutions for the civil war could, in fact, make us think about the present and our way ahead? Instead of shaming General Kelly why not let the man speak and perhaps we learn to look at past and current issues from a different viewpoint that lends itself to pragmatism and problem solving?

I dunno. Compromise is a reality since we're not all a bunch of Maoists. Kinda makes sense to me to compromise. Pragmatically speaking.

- Doc

That was already done in 1807.

SEE http://teachingamericanhistory.org/libr ... of-slaves/


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:00 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
Cam I think your desire for a better outcome is noble and I especially appreciate your personal experiences on the abject horror that is war, but I think you may be giving Kelly just a touch to much credit on this one.

You're probably right.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:02 am 
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The CCC wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Maybe the North makes the South an offer it can't refuse?

In order to avoid war, the murder of hundreds of thousands through trauma, shock, disease, starvation, and depravity the North offers the South something along the lines of a transition deal?

Like. Ok. Instead of spending blood and treasure on a conflict neither one of us should want why don't we pay you for each one of your slaves, and then over the next 100 years we transition to a compensation based economy the North will pay your workers' wages for 100 years. So, you owners get to keep your assets, you import workers rather than slaves, the North will foot the bill, and we transition to an economy that will preserve the Union in perpetuity.

When the Irish get off the boat instead of getting a gun and uniform they get a train ticket and a job? Maybe instead of supporting the Africans murdering one another and selling off their captives we promote opportunity for free Africans who want to start a new life?

Maybe that's what General Kelly meant when talking about compromise? Maybe studying the past and suggesting alternative resolutions for the civil war could, in fact, make us think about the present and our way ahead? Instead of shaming General Kelly why not let the man speak and perhaps we learn to look at past and current issues from a different viewpoint that lends itself to pragmatism and problem solving?

I dunno. Compromise is a reality since we're not all a bunch of Maoists. Kinda makes sense to me to compromise. Pragmatically speaking.

- Doc

That was already done in 1807.

SEE http://teachingamericanhistory.org/libr ... of-slaves/

Everything I suggested was already done? I don't think so.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:03 am 
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Chap wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Instead of shaming General Kelly why not let the man speak


Who's stopping him? You are surely not telling us he is a snowflake who needs a safe space to tell us what he thinks?


You're right Mrs. Doubtfire. General Kelly is a special snowflake. Lol. ____ in' limey.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:23 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Everything I suggested was already done? I don't think so.

- Doc


I've never found scatter-gun approaches very helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:49 am 
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The CCC wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Everything I suggested was already done? I don't think so.

- Doc

I've never found scatter-gun approaches very helpful.

I have no idea what you're talking about, and no idea what the link you provided does for your assertion in relation to my earlier post. You're going to have to flesh it out, or just leave the issue muddled up with your unexplained link.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:55 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
General Kelly is a special snowflake


Yup.

Image

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Cool. Still waiting on your solution prior to war breaking out.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:43 pm 
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It is really pretty easy to understand. The 3/5 of a person in the US Constitution was a compromise to keep the South in the Union. The law that made the importation of slaves into the US was designed to end slavery as the slaves died off. The South had no intent of ever getting rid of slavery no matter the compromise.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:27 pm 
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I just want to note that none of the "war is morally preferable" crowd could adequately explain why compromise on slavery was totes cool up until Sumter, and then all of a sudden it was totes bad.

Also, I want to note that none of the "war is morally preferable" crowd could explain why it wasn't totes preferable before Sumter and why, if it was really the preferable option, didn't the North go to war earlier.

Compromise good until an arbitrary date. Compromise totes bad after arbitray date. If you suggest potential compromise after arbitrary date you hate black people.

____ ing Liberals = Your brain on post-modernism.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I just want to note that none of the "war is morally preferable" crowd could adequately explain why compromise on slavery was totes cool up until Sumter...


I'm sipping my second glass of High West whiskey as I write this after a long day, so if I regret what I'm about to say in the morning, we can blame it on the booze. With that caveat....

I think I agree with your basic point. I have some Quaker roots which sport the bumper sticker, "War is not the answer."

On the other hand, I have some very deep American roots, and am a direct and namesake of Roger Sherman, the representative of Connecticut that championed the original Great Compromise in the Constitutional Convention.

It pains me to write this, but I'm not sure the compromise was worth it. Maybe it would have been preferable to remain a British colony rather than compromising on blacks being 3/5ths of a person.

On the other hand, if the principles of the Declaration of Independence really are true, I don't understand Lincoln's proposition that we are one nation, indivisible. Maybe it would have been better to let the South go their separate way when they declared their own independence in order to preserve the unequivocally despicable basis of their economy. That way, at least they would own their own problems and bigotry, and let Yankees be an independent and free beacon of morality.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:02 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Cool. Still waiting on your solution prior to war breaking out.

- Doc


I don't necessarily think there was a solution. This is off-track of what the problem being discussed is in the first place. General Kelly argued that the civil war happened because of a failure to compromise and lamented that this compromise did not happen. In order to defend this comment as reasonable, you have to be able to surmise some workable compromises that would've averted civil war that also would've been morally preferable to not taking further action to curtail slavery and risk war. The onus is on you to provide that. I don't think it exists. We can infer this from the fact that the South seceded and seized federal forts because of the victory of free soil Republicans in 1860. The South was not going to abide reasonable efforts to choke off slavery through political compromise.

The over-arching theme of your response to this is to point out the horrors of war - which are truly horrible - while completely downplaying the horrors of slavery. As mind-boggling the number of civil war casualties were, they don't touch the number of people who were enslaved. Either you believe some things are worth risking war for or you don't. If you don't, you have to own that position, which so far you've been reluctant to, and if you do, then you have to account for why one of the worst things imaginable isn't worth risking war over to try to stop through political means.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:27 am 
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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:55 am 
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EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Cool. Still waiting on your solution prior to war breaking out.

- Doc


I don't necessarily think there was a solution. This is off-track of what the problem being discussed is in the first place. General Kelly argued that the civil war happened because of a failure to compromise and lamented that this compromise did not happen. In order to defend this comment as reasonable, you have to be able to surmise some workable compromises that would've averted civil war that also would've been morally preferable to not taking further action to curtail slavery and risk war. The onus is on you to provide that. I don't think it exists. We can infer this from the fact that the South seceded and seized federal forts because of the victory of free soil Republicans in 1860. The South was not going to abide reasonable efforts to choke off slavery through political compromise.

The over-arching theme of your response to this is to point out the horrors of war - which are truly horrible - while completely downplaying the horrors of slavery. As mind-boggling the number of civil war casualties were, they don't touch the number of people who were enslaved. Either you believe some things are worth risking war for or you don't. If you don't, you have to own that position, which so far you've been reluctant to, and if you do, then you have to account for why one of the worst things imaginable isn't worth risking war over to try to stop through political means.


There you go again. Assigning a position to me and then arguing against it.

Why not let the Confederacy go with the caveat all American territories will be added to the Union? Avoid war. Support the underground railroad. Find ways to negotiate them back into the union. Pay for freed slaves, offer to send immigrants to them as a wage class, so on and so forth. I did address it, but you conveniently ignored the suggestions.

Anyway. You totes didn't even attempt to explain yourself, other than 'war is morally preferable'. You've basically lost any and all moral decency with that position.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:08 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
There is much I'd love to say about this as the civil war is a nerd topic for me. But at the same, this seems to be less about the history and more about modern libs doing what they do. I need to be disciplined and not get sucked in. I'm certainly no historian, but I have read more than a few books about the civil war and Lincoln. I'm one of those who is persuaded by the arguments that the war was not about slavery. Sure, it was a proximate cause, but it was not the ultimate cause. Based on what has already been said, I don't think there would be any point in going there though. For those who have an interest, I'm going to just leave this here. Do yourself a favor and give it a listen. Two Ph.D. historians nerding out on this Kelly statement and liberal revisionism and group think in general. I cannot possibly say it better than them.

http://tomwoods.com/ep-1033-was-gen-kel ... civil-war/


Here is the Confederate States reason for the Civil War. Slavery
SEE https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary- ... ing-states


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
There is much I'd love to say about this as the civil war is a nerd topic for me. But at the same, this seems to be less about the history and more about modern libs doing what they do. I need to be disciplined and not get sucked in. I'm certainly no historian, but I have read more than a few books about the civil war and Lincoln. I'm one of those who is persuaded by the arguments that the war was not about slavery. Sure, it was a proximate cause, but it was not the ultimate cause. Based on what has already been said, I don't think there would be any point in going there though. For those who have an interest, I'm going to just leave this here. Do yourself a favor and give it a listen. Two Ph.D. historians nerding out on this Kelly statement and liberal revisionism and group think in general. I cannot possibly say it better than them.

http://tomwoods.com/ep-1033-was-gen-kel ... civil-war/


I started listening, but I don't think I have the attention span or patience for an hour whatever. Do you have a time stamp suggestion so I can get to the point of what you're trying to say?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I just want to note that none of the "war is morally preferable" crowd could adequately explain why compromise on slavery was totes cool up until Sumter, and then all of a sudden it was totes bad.


I don't think anyone on this board has advocated such a stupid way of looking at things.

You are a one person straw man factory.

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Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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