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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:06 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Yes, so you are virtue signaling with an ends justifies the means argument.


Nah. I’m saying that the compromises in place since 1789 (and those incrementally arrived at later) hadn’t worked. The issue of slavery hadn’t resolved itself, as the founders had hoped. It was past time that the US moved to end it. The South had signaled that they weren’t open to compromise by seceding and… (umm, wait for it...) … and saying they weren’t open to compromise.

Water Dog wrote:
I tend to think those who are the most ostentatious in their aversion to slavery are probably the least likely to have opposed it at the time.


Why would you ‘tend to think’ this? How ostentatiousness is your aversion to slavery, Water Dog? Do you only ‘kind of’ oppose it? Or are you enthusiastic in your opposition?

Water Dog wrote:
Opposing slavery in 2017 does not require any courage whatsoever, whereas it would have required quite a lot in the 1850s.


You're right. Neither you nor I are very courageous in opposing slavery now. We should have done it in the 1850s, when it took real balls.

Water Dog wrote:
You are saying slavery is bad. I agree with you. What Kelly was saying, which I agree with, is that a million men didn't necessarily need to be sent off to die, and under false pretenses, to achieve this goal.


Okay. Make your argument. Unless I missed it, your linked podcast certainly didn’t outline what could have been done.

Water Dog wrote:
The thing is, that wasn't actually Lincoln's goal to begin with. Things were much more complex than this simple "good vs evil" Marvel fight as characterized by the left.


You’re right. Lincoln famously wanted to compromise and end slavery gradually. (But, as a student of history, you already know that.) The South was having none of it.

Water Dog wrote:
You cheer the war, and Lincoln, simply because you like the outcome. With little to no regard for the complexities and ultimate causes.


Please show where I do this.

Water Dog wrote:
Which is morally relativistic to begin with, arguing one form of suffering is superior to another.


Again, where do I argue that “one form of suffering is superior to another"?

Suffering has no virtue. Suffering is just suffering.

Water Dog wrote:
A million dead, plus all the wounded, and everything that comes with that, extending all the way down to our time, is better than if things had been resolved through other more peaceful means? The scars of the civil war remain.


Sure. It was beyond horrible. And the scars remain. As do the scars of slavery.

(But, something Civil War dead were six to seven hundred-thousand, if I remember.)

Water Dog wrote:

Comparing with other places like Britain, if we had done away with slavery peacefully, I don't think we'd have the polarized political situation that we do right now to be honest. White nationalism, the solid south, Jim Crow, etc, etc. It left a huge mark.

I am not at all convinced that the war was either necessary or ultimately a good thing. But I don't mind others who disagree. If your reading of the history is that it was necessary, cool.


I believe Britain did it by just outlawing it.

To the second part: Thanks.

Water Dog wrote:
What bugs me is the extreme position you take. Condemning Kelly for his view. CONDEMN, really? You are not morally superior by virtue of the position you assert. These are not disagreements worthy of condemnations. Kelly is not a bad man. He's a very good man, actually.


Yeah. Condemn. Even in capital letters. Really.

Kelly is the President’s Chief of Staff. His words matter more than some internet podcaster trying to make a buck. The most charitable explanation is that Kelly took the Fox News bait and he didn’t know what else to say. If I’m wrong and Gen. Kelly does have some retroactive (and until now, uncharted) solution this conundrum, it’s too bad he hasn’t clarified. Any newspaper or journal in the US would be more than pleased to print his detailed theory.

Water Dog wrote:
And more than basically just being assholes towards one another, the idea of taking such an extreme position concerns me.

If the ends justified the means, and it was appropriate for someone like Lincoln to make that decision for everybody else, what other social justice causes would justify similar acts?


Yes, you’ve already expressed that you think Lincoln was some sort of dictator manipulating pawns. Even at his worst moment, I doubt Gen. Kelly would agree.




Edited to repair atrocious spelling and grammar.


Last edited by Morley on Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:09 am 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:43 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
After I click submit I'm not returning to this thread, you people are lunatics.


So sorry, I was looking forward to your rebut.

Thanks for the discussion, Water Dog.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
So yes, a thought stopping cliché. Tom Woods and Kevin Gutzman are white nationalists? As I'm sure Walter Williams is. SMH. After I click submit I'm not returning to this thread, you people are lunatics.


Have you taken a look at The League of the South and their publication The Free Magnolia? It only takes 5 minutes to figure out their deal.

You may want to do that before throwing in with them.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Nice. 95-15 here.


Ah. That provides a little context to your sometimes dickishness.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Morley wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Nice. 95-15 here.


Ah. That provides a little context to your sometimes dickishness.


Well, I tried enlisting when 'nam was going on, but they weren't taking newborns.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Morley wrote:

Ah. That provides a little context to your sometimes dickishness.


Well, I tried enlisting when 'nam was going on, but they weren't taking newborns.

- Doc


Yeah, no kidding. I'm surprised you were even alive.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:39 pm 
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I enlisted in 1971.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Morley wrote:

Ah. That provides a little context to your sometimes dickishness.


Well, I tried enlisting when 'nam was going on, but they weren't taking newborns.

- Doc


You would've just been searching the Jeep to confiscate joints, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:42 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I enlisted in 1971.


I'm guessing Navy.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:49 pm 
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The CCC wrote:
I enlisted in 1971.


You outed yourself! I was born in 1971! You old dog.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I enlisted in 1971.


You outed yourself! I was born in 1971! You old dog.


My hat's off to both of you. I have huge respect for anyone who serves.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Water Dog uses “virtue signaling” as a thought stopping cliché. He applies it to any expression of values that he wishes to dismiss rather than seriously engage with.

Really Rep? I think I said quite a lot engaging the subject... :rolleyes:

by the way, WTF is a "neoconfederate?" Sounds like some sort of thought stopping cliché.

I said my peace. My point isn't to reason with unreasonable people. Just want to put on record that's what I think you are. I have zero expectation that bullies will stop being bullies, but they nontheless should get called out from time to time. Resume your regularly scheduled circle jerk...


Yeah, really. But you do have to read what I actually write rather than make up stuff that I didn't write.

You use your thought-stopping cliché to avoid having to seriously engage with the morality of slave ownership. You can't defend it, so you invent some excuse to avoid having to think about it.

You've bought into a quasi-conspiracy theory that the left has rewritten history, when it's the folks you cite who are actually the revisionists. You just label stuff "leftist" so you can avoid thinking seriously about it. Look at what you did here -- in the face of hard evidence that you were relying on a white supremacist for your views, you just stomped off the thread. And I'm somehow the unreasonable guy?

The biggest circle jerk of all is the right-wing conspiracy mongers you've hitched your wagon to.

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​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Morley wrote:
I believe Britain did it by just outlawing it.

Actually slavery in England was not so much abolished as declared to have no legal existence, in what is known as Somerset's case of 1772: see the original case report here (pdf):

http://www.commonlii.org/int/cases/EngR/1772/57.pdf

The key words of the judgement by Lord Mansfield are:

Quote:
The state of slavery is of such a nature that it is incapable of being introduced on any reasons, moral or political, but only by positive law [statute], which preserves its force long after the reasons, occasions, and time itself from whence it was created, is erased from memory. It is so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law. Whatever inconveniences, therefore, may follow from the decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England; and therefore the black must be discharged.

Some have wondered how far this judgement - which made it impossible to hold another person as a slave in England - may have influenced some colonists to think that they had better sever the bond with England as soon as possible, to avoid their valuable human cattle claiming their freedom under common law ...

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Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:16 am 
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Morley wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I enlisted in 1971.


I'm guessing Navy.


I don't like boats as much as I like air planes. US AIR FORCE. My dad was still in the US AIR FORCE.


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 Post subject: Re: John Kelly and Trump, perfect match
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:20 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
The CCC wrote:
I enlisted in 1971.


You outed yourself! I was born in 1971! You old dog.

- Doc


Sometimes I feel older than dirt. :lol: I was born in 1951.


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