Borrowing against assets
Borrowing against assets
It has been speculated that the mall the church bought for uber amounts of cash did nto use tithing funds but borrowed against assets like temples. Is there direct evidence of this? can't remember who said it originally but this makes a deal of sense in that construction of temples are usually on highly equitable real estate, etc.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
maklelan wrote:VegasRefugee wrote:maklelan wrote:Actually it's business endeavors like cattle ranches and things like that.
And where did the money for the cattle ranches come from?
Donations from wealthy members and from GA's who live the law of consecration.
In essence your describing tithing or an investment group.
I find it highly likely that the "donating" individuals recieved a return on these investments.
And what evidence do you use to draw this conclusion?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:In essence your describing tithing or an investment group.
No, it's a donation, just like Marriott offered to donate all the money for one of the temples, and currently donates all the money for the plane tickets home for missionaries.
VegasRefugee wrote:I find it highly likely that the "donating" individuals recieved a return on these investments.
Well, they don't.
VegasRefugee wrote:And what evidence do you use to draw this conclusion?
My own personal experiences as a financial secretary, branch president and close friend to a few different General Authorities and wealthy church members. My entire mission was actually paid for by one of those members. He wrote out a check for the whole thing one day and told me to give it to the bishop. He told me when I did the same for a kid who couldn't afford it he'd consider himself paid back. Another member started an excercise program for our ward and spent $30,000 on new running shoes for the entire ward. We just had to go to a certain shoe store and tell 'em who sent us. While I was financial secretary I was responsible for all of the President's reimbursments. I had a list of everything a mission president could and could not use church money for. In that he was in charge of tithing and the welfare program for nine years, I really enjoyed my long drives out to far off areas with him because he would talk about church financing. He evidently thought I would be working in it someday. I was in charge of changing the entire financial system of the mission when the bank we were using shut down completely during one of the country's many financial crises. The President thought my choices and my presentations were excellent. An old couple in my ward got called to a mission in Salt Lake, and I visited them a few times. They lived in the apartment just below President Hinckley's. They invited me to come have dinner with him on the day I went into the MTC, but the MTC wouldn't have it. As a branch president I had to take care of two families (the only two families) in my branch that were basically homeless. I was quickly educated in what I could and could not do as a branch president, and what the church expected me to do with the resources and for the family, as well as what was expected of them. I have much more if you still think I'm just making everything up.
maklelan wrote:VegasRefugee wrote:In essence your describing tithing or an investment group.
No, it's a donation, just like Marriott offered to donate all the money for one of the temples, and currently donates all the money for the plane tickets home for missionaries.VegasRefugee wrote:I find it highly likely that the "donating" individuals recieved a return on these investments.
Well, they don't.VegasRefugee wrote:And what evidence do you use to draw this conclusion?
My own personal experiences as a financial secretary, branch president and close friend to a few different General Authorities and wealthy church members. My entire mission was actually paid for by one of those members. He wrote out a check for the whole thing one day and told me to give it to the bishop. He told me when I did the same for a kid who couldn't afford it he'd consider himself paid back. Another member started an excercise program for our ward and spent $30,000 on new running shoes for the entire ward. We just had to go to a certain shoe store and tell 'em who sent us. While I was financial secretary I was responsible for all of the President's reimbursments. I had a list of everything a mission president could and could not use church money for. In that he was in charge of tithing and the welfare program for nine years, I really enjoyed my long drives out to far off areas with him because he would talk about church financing. He evidently thought I would be working in it someday. I was in charge of changing the entire financial system of the mission when the bank we were using shut down completely during one of the country's many financial crises. The President thought my choices and my presentations were excellent. An old couple in my ward got called to a mission in Salt Lake, and I visited them a few times. They lived in the apartment just below President Hinckley's. They invited me to come have dinner with him on the day I went into the MTC, but the MTC wouldn't have it. As a branch president I had to take care of two families (the only two families) in my branch that were basically homeless. I was quickly educated in what I could and could not do as a branch president, and what the church expected me to do with the resources and for the family, as well as what was expected of them. I have much more if you still think I'm just making everything up.
No, I don't think your making it up. I think your drawing conclusions about larger scale things based on such minor experiences. Have you seen teh ledgers, accounts etc for the SLC mall? If you have not then you have no grounds to deny my speculation based on such limited experience. It sounds like you and I had similar mission experiences. I had access to the same information you speak of and do not purport that it can be used to draw the same conclusions you are making concerning the SLC mall.
What this is coming down to is where the money that is paying for the mall came from. Directly. What fund, program, etc. Speculation that its some GA's living the law of consecration (something i have never heard them do) or well to do members "donating" money is spurious at best.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
VegasRefugee wrote:What this is coming down to is where the money that is paying for the mall came from. Directly. What fund, program, etc. Speculation that its some GA's living the law of consecration (something i have never heard them do) or well to do members "donating" money is spurious at best.
Well, please, provide your source and we'll see who's got the better reference. Mine's a man who ran the tithing and welfare system of the entire church and was training me in finances. What's yours?
maklelan wrote:VegasRefugee wrote:What this is coming down to is where the money that is paying for the mall came from. Directly. What fund, program, etc. Speculation that its some GA's living the law of consecration (something i have never heard them do) or well to do members "donating" money is spurious at best.
Well, please, provide your source and we'll see who's got the better reference. Mine's a man who ran the tithing and welfare system of the entire church and was training me in finances. What's yours?
Ug...Mak, this is gettting tiresome. The endless masturbation on who has the best sources easilly derails the subject matter. This is your only way to respond.
This is all you know how to do.
My tactics are to ask questions based on the previous assertions given by the polar opposites I talk with.
My contacts are irrelevant and you persist in this pissing contest. Just say that you really do not know what is paying for the mall and we can move onto the next phase in this discussion, outlining HOW we can determine this.
Since you did not clarify I am assuming your just going to complain further.
And your mission president does not count. I want a direct numerical breakdown on the financing of the mall. This is what is called EVIDENCE. Its used in what is called ARGUMENTS to prove LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS. Anecdotal heart to hearts with your former mission prez does not count.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning