How far do you have to go?

[_Sam Harris]

What I think is the most important thing to remember about forgiveness is that it isn't for the sake of other person, it's for the sake of the forgiver, to bring peace of mind to ourselves. We can't change the other person, and whether the request for forgiveness was heart-felt or not, whether he will change or not, he is in charge of that, not us, but by forgiving him as often as necessary, even though we don't forget his actions, we can forget the aggravation caused by his actions.

Meanwhile, our friend in the little yellow boat will continue to do his level best to change us, bless his sweet little heart.

Yeah, bless his heart.

Lucretia, I tried that formula. But I have come to understand that some people really don't want to be forgiven, because they don't change. I cannot forgive people who are not truly sorry, who may give excuses and a few wet apologies, but who ultimately go back to the same thing they were doing before. I've tried for years to wipe slates clean, only to have them soiled again by the people who just SWORE they'd never do it again.

If you're truly repentant, you just change. Words aren't needed right away.

[_Ray A]

Wade, I have to be honest, I think you just got one of the most powerful personal sermons I've ever read. Take it to heart.

[_Sam Harris]

Wade, with regards to changing for the better, you don't know any of us here. You don't know how some people might have been changed for the better by leaving the church, and you never gave that any thought.

I personally have changed for the better. That's not based on your or anyone else's views. I don't have to put on a pretty face for anyone, because God sees who I am. The good, the bad, and the really ugly. And He loves me anyway. His love isn't based on performance, or a good testimony, or even following a set of rules. I'm loved because I'm His. THAT is what changed me.

Perhaps if you had spent more time trying to truly get to know folks here instead of telling us what our mental problems were, you might have gotten to know us. And remember, our personal little therapy session goes back to FAIR. Your intent even then was to manipulate folks into seeing themselves in a self-deprecating light because of their qualms about the church.

For some people, change for the better means recognizing the people who are toxic, telling them to their face, and being done with it. As for me, I do not accept your aplogy or Loran's. I won't leave the board unless asked, but I do know that I can simply ignore you. That is how I change for the better, because I don't have faith that you or many others like you will. You may think that diminishes the quality of my life, but in actuality it saves me a lot of trouble. I don't have time to constantly disentangle myself from co-dependent would-be saviors.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

[quote="GIMR[/quote]

Yeah, bless his heart.

Lucretia, I tried that formula. But I have come to understand that some people really don't want to be forgiven, because they don't change. I cannot forgive people who are not truly sorry, who may give excuses and a few wet apologies, but who ultimately go back to the same thing they were doing before. I've tried for years to wipe slates clean, only to have them soiled again by the people who just SWORE they'd never do it again.

If you're truly repentant, you just change. Words aren't needed right away.[/quote]

So true, the truly repentant do just change.

I used to work with a girl who was inclined to be a bit disagreeable at best, and some days she would come in and announce that she was in a bad mood and apologize in advance for anything offensive she might say for the rest of the day, giving her free license to be wicked as she liked, in her way of thinking. But the thing is, if anyone else in the office was going to have a good day they would have to do it in spite of her, which would mean forgiving her, so to speak. By not forgiving, by judging her motives, we would allow her to disrupt our peace. For myself, it's easier to practice what I preach on the internet than in real life, and after nearly ten years of posting on Mormon boards there's nothing much any TBM can say that I'm going to take personally. I don't worry about clean slates because even if one person truly repents of TBMism, there will be another two or three to take his place, and peace is important to me.

Think of it this way, by refusing to forgive you are judging him in the same way as he has judged you, and just because you are right doesn't make you peaceful. "It promotes grimness in the world as much to take offense as to give offense." I don't know who said that first, but it's become a mantra for me. I wish I'd learned that 40 years ago, but alas they don't teach it in the Mormon church.

And if someone does ask you to leave this board, don't do it!