God?????s grace in Mormonism question

[_msnobody]

“So MG does the "after all we can do" mean like BYU's Steven Robinson's parable of the little girl wanting a bike- she/sinner does what she can and earns $10, then her dad/Christ "makes up the $70 difference/ atonement"

Thanks for posting this, Kairos. I had forgotten that the missionaries, who were called and commissioned by the prophet, taught me this except they used, If I recall correctly, the purchase of a house.

[_huckelberry]

For some time theologians of various shades have attempted to clarify by being careful to distinguish various portions Old Testament the question. First it is considered what is necessary to start a sinning nonbeliever on the path of asking Gods help and repenting. What is Gods role and what is the human role? It is then considered what happens after that start, how does a person despite sin progress to become more like God? I do not know of a Christian line of thought which would not agree with that Mormon image of God completing the cost which the human could not.

A strict Calvinist says that people do not think to or desire to repent or search for God unless and untill God calls them by the Holy Spirit. God choose whom to call according to his own will. People respond in faith and repentance. It is not thought that God saves and people do whatever. Not so Calvinist folks see Gods inspiration as inviting more broadly and not all people choose to respond.

The Calvinist understands that after conversion people may fall into some sin or uncertainty but God enables them to repent and turn. God enables the individual to become more responsive to that good and so grows in love of both God and other people. The Calvinist believes that both the initial call and the ongoing growth are chosen by people because it is irresisitible due to its inherent desirablity. Non Calvinists see human choice as more variable. Those bound for destruction or hell are following their own choice. Calvinist see this as God choosing to pass some people by. If you want to be a real strict Calvinist God is to be seen as choosing prior to considering any of the persons individual qualities or choices.( I do not myself see how God is to be seen as performing such a self blinding )

So I think the large picture, realizing our capacity for evil, turning from that in a Hope to grow into something able to discover real love is held in common with Mormons, Catholics,Lutherans Calvinist and Methodists etc. Those points of differences inside of that may not get resolved anytime soon.

Now I am not sure but there may be some name it and claim iters that are going on after something quite different. I hope they do not loose their way too far.

[_kairos]

Reference repentance- as the good thief asked Christ to "remember me when you come into your kingdom", by asking Jesus he mentally hopefully willfully repented - this was acceptable to jesus- the thief did not have to make restorations to those he robbed. his turning from his former self and relying on the blood of jesus/atonement, the thief is a good example of how grace works- Lord's ,unmerited by the thief, favor,grace, with the faith the thief exhibited was sufficient for his salvation.
When i gave my life to christ jan 6th 1986 , i said the sinner's pray " i recognized my sinfuness, asked for forgiveness turn my will over to God, asked Christ to come into my heart as my personal- so the little faith i exhibited by doing that and with grace that is christ's atonement,these sealed me forever by the holy spirit and my name was written in the lamb's book of life never to be erased no matter how much backslidding i might do. for me i experienced a 180 degree turn in my life, as i tried to avoid sin, repented daily for any sins i committed, tried to love and serve god first and others second. my experience was a defining moment in my life-like the first half of my life was all about "me,my mine", instant gratification, while the second half of my life has been a close walk with Christ giving him glory in every situation, avoiding sin(try to repent as soon after a sin as possible) and serving others.

i wanted to bring up how some see salvation :1) non- saved individual is drowning in a lake, but reaches his hand up and god grasps his hand, giving him salvation:2) calvinist would see the scene as a person drowning but lifts not a hand toward god, but god swoops down and brings that individual salvation because that person is one of the elect. Clearly no work is required of the second individual, but some might say the first guy reaching his hand out of the water is "work". For me i see faith in christ as an assent not work(you may disagree), but a cooperation with god in the salvation process.

the Bible in john 3;16 jesus says if you believe in him-who he is, what he did then you have eternal life. most religions require baptism, assent o doctrine etc but Christ really makes it simple- the key is what he meant by believe-turn fully and willfully our life to christ, turning from our sins living from then on in obedience to him. whether that salvation formula is authentic is determined by actions after the salvation event. have i truly turned from sin, love god and neighbor intensely , reading and following the Bible etc. if after my salvation moment i continue to cheat on my wife, steal, use god's name in vain then the salvation moment was probably not authentic!

forgive the often discombobulation of my responce
thanx
k

[_mentalgymnast]

...the thief did not have to make restorations to those he robbed...

That would have been kind of tough. Hanging on a cross and all...

Not sure that this demonstrates that restoration is not a necessary part of the repentance process.

Truth is, your ‘grace’ seems rather cheap. No real effort goes into it. What happens to human potential?

Regards,
MG

[_msnobody]

...the thief did not have to make restorations to those he robbed...

That would have been kind of tough. Hanging on a cross and all...

Not sure that this demonstrates that restoration is not a necessary part of the repentance process.

Truth is, your ‘grace’ seems rather cheap. No real effort goes into it. What happens to human potential?

Regards,
MG

Grace is anything but cheap. Our sin cost Christ greatly. It’s hard to let go of self-righteousness.

[_msnobody]

Reference repentance- as the good thief asked Christ to "remember me when you come into your kingdom", by asking Jesus he mentally hopefully willfully repented - this was acceptable to jesus- the thief did not have to make restorations to those he robbed. his turning from his former self and relying on the blood of Jesus/atonement, the thief is a good example of how grace works- Lord's ,unmerited by the thief, favor,grace, with the faith the thief exhibited was sufficient for his salvation.
When i gave my life to Christ jan 6th 1986 , i said the sinner's pray " i recognized my sinfuness, asked for forgiveness turn my will over to God, asked Christ to come into my heart as my personal- so the little faith i exhibited by doing that and with grace that is Christ's atonement,these sealed me forever by the holy spirit and my name was written in the lamb's book of life never to be erased no matter how much backslidding i might do. for me i experienced a 180 degree turn in my life, as i tried to avoid sin, repented daily for any sins i committed, tried to love and serve god first and others second. my experience was a defining moment in my life-like the first half of my life was all about "me,my mine", instant gratification, while the second half of my life has been a close walk with Christ giving him glory in every situation, avoiding sin(try to repent as soon after a sin as possible) and serving others.

i wanted to bring up how some see salvation :1) non- saved individual is drowning in a lake, but reaches his hand up and god grasps his hand, giving him salvation:2) calvinist would see the scene as a person drowning but lifts not a hand toward god, but god swoops down and brings that individual salvation because that person is one of the elect. Clearly no work is required of the second individual, but some might say the first guy reaching his hand out of the water is "work". For me i see faith in Christ as an assent not work(you may disagree), but a cooperation with god in the salvation process.

the Bible in john 3;16 Jesus says if you believe in him-who he is, what he did then you have eternal life. most religions require baptism, assent o doctrine etc but Christ really makes it simple- the key is what he meant by believe-turn fully and willfully our life to Christ, turning from our sins living from then on in obedience to him. whether that salvation formula is authentic is determined by actions after the salvation event. have i truly turned from sin, love god and neighbor intensely , reading and following the Bible etc. if after my salvation moment i continue to cheat on my wife, steal, use god's name in vain then the salvation moment was probably not authentic!

forgive the often discombobulation of my responce
thanx
k

Thank you for sharing that kairos. I often feel discombobulated in my responses as well.

I think I was probably around 11 years old. I don’t know the exact date, but vividly remember what happened. I was at a revival church service. Suddenly I was aware myself as a sinner like never before. It was like I could see myself right next to Jesus and I was nothing like him. It was like sin [me] standing next to holiness [Christ]. In one quick moment, I was convicted of my sin, convicted who Christ was and what he had done for me. I wanted what he was offering to me. For me, it was like what I’ve heard described as irresistible grace. It was like I was enabled to let go of what would very quickly become my former self, and run into the arms of Him who came for me.

Looking back, it was then that I was set free from the bondage of sin, no longer being under the condemnation for my sin. No more carrying around the weight of my sin. I was at peace with God. It was then that the Holy Spirit entered in—sealed with the HS never having to wonder about where I stand with Heavenly Father.

Someone here in the chat room asked me one time, “Scripture, is that all you’ve got?” My answer was, “Yes.” Yes, because Scripture whether written, spoken, or the Word Himself, is the means God uses to transform us. The Bible does what it says it will do and God’s word does indeed not return to him void, and accomplishes His intended purpose.

John 20:21-22 says, Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” I look back now ~45 years later and see all the people God used to “breathe on me,” until that very day He breathed the HS into me.

I sin every single day. This morning, as far as I know, I managed to get down to the driveway leaving for work before I sinned. Yep, it was over a fairly new hydrangea that was so small and struggling, that it got mowed over not only once, but twice. It is a struggle every single day, but I know I am forgiven.

I’m going to stick my neck on the line here and say this, I’ve posted alongside some of you for like maybe 18 years and it is time for some of you to shake off the grave clothes and start living. So, if the Lord calls you, let go and turn to Him. Don't push him away. He is what you’re really longing for. You’ll know what real grace is. Ask Him to give you the faith to trust in Christ, and when the time is right, He will do it.
Grace is costly, yet freely given.

for what it's worth, the book of Hebrews has been on my mind. Hebrews chapter 10 is where I've been camped out. Read the book if you're of the mind to. :)

[_huckelberry]

...the thief did not have to make restorations to those he robbed...

That would have been kind of tough. Hanging on a cross and all...

Not sure that this demonstrates that restoration is not a necessary part of the repentance process.

Truth is, your ‘grace’ seems rather cheap. No real effort goes into it. What happens to human potential?

Regards,
MG

Mg, I think you have a point about the thief on the cross. The poor fellow was doing all he possibly could.

I do not share your dismissal of the value of kairos's grace. I think Kairos puts a lot of effort into living and I see no way in which his human potential has been diminished. In fact there is a possibility that his potential is healthy and expanded. He may work to learn, make things, invent things, discover things. He may make music ,art or literature to share with the rest of us. He may create or participate in projects to help others. Perhaps he works 40 hrs week trucking groceries to the distribution points where people can purchase it to take home for dinner. Maybe he is the plumber who helps fix peoples plumbing problems. He may discover ways to help his neighbors or interject some decency into human transactions. He may grow in all of the ways to be a good friend, neighbor spouse and parent. I am sure he is not equally good in each of those possibilities or all those I did not list . We all find paths that fit our talents and situation and do not have the time before we die to do all of those things.

He is not limited by having to expend extra work trying to earn grace. Now I have an image of some people cranking away and away and away on a religion engion hoping it will get them grace. Sit in church more , say more prayers give more money read more scriptures, scripture explanations do more rituals all hoping to get grace they already have access to. I am not thinking those religious activities have no value but I suspect they can be overworked. It is possible that a lot of religious activity could simply use up the time better spent creating some good in life.

But if all of your works are added up into some sort of downpayment for grace are you sure you do enough? Are you even sure you do more than Kairos or other people. Yes I am sure you know some folks that work less than you but I am sure there are people who do more, some much more.

Seek your real potential by living with God.

[_mentalgymnast]

That would have been kind of tough. Hanging on a cross and all...

Not sure that this demonstrates that restoration is not a necessary part of the repentance process.

Truth is, your ‘grace’ seems rather cheap. No real effort goes into it. What happens to human potential?

Regards,
MG

Mg, I think you have a point about the thief on the cross. The poor fellow was doing all he possibly could.

I do not share your dismissal of the value of kairos's grace. I think Kairos puts a lot of effort into living and I see no way in which his human potential has been diminished.

If kairos is living a life in which he/she is continually repenting from sin and reaching his/her potential, then great. My concern, and I’ve alluded to it, is that when something is ‘cheap’ or easy to get it may lose its value or importance. One time ‘saved’ always saved...there might be a propensity towards not taking repentance seriously. By not taking repentance seriously there is a good chance that human potential is diminished.

Do we want to be mediocre or do we want to be our very best possible selves?

Regards,
MG

[_msnobody]

Mg, I think you have a point about the thief on the cross. The poor fellow was doing all he possibly could.

I do not share your dismissal of the value of kairos's grace. I think Kairos puts a lot of effort into living and I see no way in which his human potential has been diminished.

If kairos is living a life in which he/she is continually repenting from sin and reaching his/her potential, then great. My concern, and I’ve alluded to it, is that when something is ‘cheap’ or easy to get it may lose its value or importance. One time ‘saved’ always saved...there might be a propensity towards not taking repentance seriously. By not taking repentance seriously there is a good chance that human potential is diminished.

Do we want to be mediocre or do we want to be our very best possible selves?

Regards,
MG

I just found some old notes I took somewhere along life’s way, perhaps from a Bible Study Fellowship (www.bsfinternational.org) study, Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology, or sermon notes (www.tohimbeglory.org ), or a combination of the three.

The Order of Salvation
1. Election- God’s choice of people to be saved
2. The Gospel Call- Proclaiming the message of the gospel
3. Regeneration- Being born again
4. Conversion- Faith and repentance
5. Justification- Right legal standing
6. Adoption- Membership in God’s family
7. Sanctification- Right conduct of life
8. Perseverance- Remaining a Christian
9. Death- Going to be with the Lord
10. Glorification- Receive a resurrected body

I would say that Kairos is now being sanctified and is persevering. God desires that we be holy as he is holy; we are called to be holy (1 Peter, ch. 1). Quoting Grudem, sanctification is “a progressive work of God and man that makes us more and more free from sin and like Christ in our actual lives.” I think I would venture to say that sanctification is a trajectory toward an absolute (holiness) for the believer.

When we sin, God uses the indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin, and draw us to repentance. I believe part of sanctification is God’s discipline of his children, which he does for our own good, uses it to train us, and thereby, that we may share in his holiness Hebrews 12:10-11. As I think about it, sanctification is one facet of God’s love for his children.

The order of salvation is important. Otherwise, we rely partly on the merits of Christ and partly on our own merits, never knowing for sure our standing before God. It is wearying trying to appease God through our own sacrifices or own efforts—a heavy burden or yoke. Jesus said, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30. “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13