Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

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_I have a question
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Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _I have a question »

Tad's at it again, cherry picking.
Were the Founding Fathers heroes, or as some claim, villains? Ted Stewart, a federal judge, put this question in its proper light:

“Today, it is common to criticize the founders of America. Judging them by today’s standards of equality and justice they do fail. Some owned slaves, none fought to give women equal rights. Most were wealthy white men. …

“But there is just one problem with judging them by today’s standards and it is this: but for those imperfect founders and the sacrifices that they made and the instruments of government which they created, there would be no current, enlightened standards of equality and justice by which to judge them.”

Judge Stewart is so right. The reason the critics can freely criticize, protest, vote for change, run for office and exercise freedom of religion or irreligion as they choose is for one reason and one reason only, because the Founding Fathers made it so. America is the greatest democracy the world has ever known. Do the critics believe these liberties came about by chance or that they were spawned by evil men? If so, how do they reconcile such a position with the unerring logic of the Savior: “Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16).
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2020/7/ ... revolution

America is the greatest democracy the world has ever known? Really? I'm not sure the surviving indigenous populations of America would agree with him. Nor, I suspect, would many poor and black Americans.
The subversion of the people’s preferences in our supposedly democratic system was explored in a 2014 study by the political scientists Martin Gilens of Princeton and Benjamin I. Page of Northwestern. Four broad theories have long sought to answer a fundamental question about our government: Who rules? One theory, the one we teach our children in civics classes, holds that the views of average people are decisive. Another theory suggests that mass-based interest groups such as the AARP have the power. A third theory predicts that business groups such as the Independent Insurance Agents and Brokers of America and the National Beer Wholesalers Association carry the day. A fourth theory holds that policy reflects the views of the economic elite.

Gilens and Page tested those theories by tracking how well the preferences of various groups predicted the way that Congress and the executive branch would act on 1,779 policy issues over a span of two decades. The results were shocking. Economic elites and narrow interest groups were very influential: They succeeded in getting their favored policies adopted about half of the time, and in stopping legislation to which they were opposed nearly all of the time. Mass-based interest groups, meanwhile, had little effect on public policy. As for the views of ordinary citizens, they had virtually no independent effect at all. “When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy,” Gilens and Page wrote.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... cy/550931/
The United States was founded as a republic, not a democracy. As Alexander Hamilton and James Madison made clear in the Federalist Papers, the essence of this republic would consist—their emphasis—“IN THE TOTAL EXCLUSION OF THE PEOPLE, IN THEIR COLLECTIVE CAPACITY, from any share” in the government. Instead, popular views would be translated into public policy through the election of representatives “whose wisdom may,” in Madison’s words, “best discern the true interest of their country.” That this radically curtailed the degree to which the people could directly influence the government was no accident.
How can Callister claim a country occupied by invaders at the expense of indigenous populations where the current population has practically zero influence on public policy is "the greatest democracy the world has ever seen"?

Back to Callister
From a worldly perspective, a revolutionary war on the part of the colonists was nothing less than a suicidal mission. It was a modern-day version of David with his slingshot against the mighty Goliath with his colossal sword and shield.

But something within drove the Founding Fathers onward — an inner vision, nay, even more, a divine assurance, that in spite of overwhelming odds, in spite of seemingly certain destruction, providence would be with them in this quest for their God-given rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
It's more likely to have been raw greed driving them on. And what about the God-given rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of the Native Americans? Tad conveniently doesn't go back that far, because he would serve to undermine the point he's trying to make.

Donald Trump, democratically elected leader of the greatest democracy the world has ever seen...don't make me laugh.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _Fence Sitter »

“Today, it is common to criticize the founders of America. Judging them by today’s standards of equality and justice they do fail. Some owned slaves, none fought to give women equal rights. Most were wealthy white men. …
How about we just judge today's LDS leadership by those standards?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_huckelberry
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _huckelberry »

So what is the greatest democracy the world has known?

I think you point out some well known stuff but supplied little in the way of ideas about that stuff. Do we take down a Washington monument and feel all clean now?

Perhaps complain about Jeffersons character and feel superior and clean.

Perhaps better to understand the mix of good and ill in the history which has made us who we are and look to improve the present and thus the future.
_Hagoth
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _Hagoth »

It really gets tiresome when people like Callister retreat to this kind of black-and-white thinking and strawmanning; we either have to worshipfully revere the founding fathers or we have to write them off as "evil men." Sigh.

Yesterday I heard someone telling a young person, "you should feel lucky you got to see Mount Rushmore, because they're going to tear it down!" I am surprised that so many people seem unable to differentiate between statues of founding fathers who (much to our chagrin) owned slaves, and statues of traitors who rebelled against the United States with the intent of perpetuating slavery, and whose statues were only raised much later under Jim Crow as intimidating reminders of who's boss around here.

We all have to come to a reckoning with our feelings about the founding fathers, good and bad. Unfortunately, we can only fantasize about the day the church will stop dancing around its serious and fundamental problems of built-in racism. That can't be done by merely disavowing racist statements by unnamed early leaders, as in the Gospel Topic essay. This stuff is in our scripture, and we should expect something better than apologetics that nuance away scriptural concepts like curse of dark skin, the mark of Cain, etc. as merely symbolic descriptors of internal darkness, or fallen countenance, or whatever.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain
_Dr LOD
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _Dr LOD »

Yesterday I heard someone telling a young person, "you should feel lucky you got to see Mount Rushmore, because they're going to tear it down!" I am surprised that so many people seem unable to differentiate between statues of founding fathers who (much to our chagrin) owned slaves, and statues of traitors who rebelled against the United States with the intent of perpetuating slavery, and whose statues were only raised much later under Jim Crow as intimidating reminders of who's boss around here.
At least in my circles it is less about the men, but more the process of the theft of the land.

https://m.startribune.com/the-real-hist ... 388715411/

The sculptures were chiseled by an imported Ku Klux Klansman on a granite mountain owned by indigenous tribes on what they considered sacred land — land that the U.S. Supreme Court said in 1980 was illegally taken from them.
_Hagoth
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _Hagoth »

Dr LOD wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:17 pm

At least in my circles it is less about the men, but more the process of the theft of the land.

https://m.startribune.com/the-real-hist ... 388715411/

The sculptures were chiseled by an imported Ku Klux Klansman on a granite mountain owned by indigenous tribes on what they considered sacred land — land that the U.S. Supreme Court said in 1980 was illegally taken from them.
:eek: Whoa. I had no idea.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain
_Kishkumen
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Re: Tad Callister: Be grateful for Misogynistic Racists

Post by _Kishkumen »

The genocide against First Nations peoples and the theft of their land are crimes that cry out for justice. We keep repeating the same crimes over and over again. I am at a loss for how we move forward when most white people don't even acknowledge the problem.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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