Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

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_Agosh
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Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Agosh »

Trying to see if any vocabulary items listed in Skousen 2018 hold up as archaic.

Starting with cross ‘contradict’.
“that thereby they might make him cross his words” (Alma 10:16)

Oxford English Dictionary, cross, v., definition 14c, wrote:†c. To contradict, contravene, traverse (a sentence, statement, etc.). Obsolete.
1589 R. Greene Menaphon sig. D4 When I alledged faith, she crost me with Æneas.
1615 Bp. J. Hall No Peace with Rome v, in Recoll. Treat. 848 They..will be crossing euery thing, that is spoken.
1675 T. Brooks Golden Key 63 One Divine Sentence cannot cross and rescind another.
1687 J. Dryden Hind & Panther iii. 126 A sort of Doves..Who cross the Proverb, and abound with Gall.
1702 Charlett Let. in S. Pepys Diary 26 Sept. Which makes travel so easy, as to cross a sentence of Lord Burghley's [to the contrary].

Looking for late 1700s, early 1800s examples of crossing words, statements, etc. meaning contradicting. Any examples appreciated.
_Rick Grunder
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Rick Grunder »

Dr. Skousen begins with the premise that the Book of Mormon must be correct. He therefore searches for examples of some of Joseph Smith’s odd word usages wherever they have to be found historically to exhibit validity. But I remember my little sister going through a period around 1960 where (for example) she would say “in case” when she meant “unless.” It sounded curious and interesting, but it was just a linguistic error, nothing more. These things happen.

My best instincts tell me that two things are at work here. 1) The Smith family and their friends are allowed to have mistakenly invented - or culturally partaken of - a few archaic or eccentric usages that could have come to them through any number of natural means. And 2) We do not have to presume in the first place that these odd usages were delivered correctly in the Book of Mormon by anyone, at any time. Just because something is weird doesn’t mean it’s right. Too urgent a fear of these possibilities (I think) might drive a person to such desperate extension as “ghost committee” theories.

This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to figure these thing out, point by detailed point, but the work can be slow. As to the specific example Agosh cites, here are a couple similar expressions below. These are not precise equivalents to the usage in Alma 10:16, but I don’t think they have to be, for reasons I suggest above. And for heaven’s sake, don’t let anyone lead us down the endless path of “How did Joseph Smith ever find these two books?” I’m sure he did not. Let’s strive instead to expand our respect for the broad richness of the culture in which he functioned.

"The family in the main were not unkind to him, though they often contradicted and crossed him, especially when things went ill with themselves." The Works of Hannah More, With a Sketch of Her Life. Complete in Two Volumes, Volume I. (Boston: S. G. Goodrich, 1827), I:253. Available here.

“. . . the whole life of man is a perpetual contradiction; and the state of disobedience is called the "contradictions of sinners;" even the man in the Gospel, that had two sons, they both crossed him, even he that obeyed him, and he that obeyed him not: for the one said he would, and did not; the other said he would not, and did; . . .” The Whole Works of the Right Rev. Jeremy Taylor, D.D., Lord Bishop of Down, Connor, and Dromore . . . In Fifteen Volumes. Vol. V. (London: Ogle, Duncan, and Co. . . . , 1822), V:139-40. Available here.


These examples come from this Ngram search.
“I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity.”
― Cicero, De Oratore - Book III
_Agosh
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Agosh »

Thanks for the reply and the examples.

We need to find, however, not crossing someone, which is def. 14a, but crossing a statement, which is def. 14c.

14. figurative. a. To thwart, oppose, go counter to.
1876 F. E. Trollope Charming Fellow I. xi. 149 I never cross her, or talk to her much when she is not feeling well.
_Agosh
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Agosh »

I've had some success finding modern examples of various presumed archaic usages, beyond the last ones listed in the Oxford English Dictionary. The dictionary, no doubt, will be updated over time. I'm just trying to find more.

For example, the dictionary has one modern quote of the verb belove used in the active voice:

1825 R. Southey Tale of Paraguay ii. x. 50 Beloving and beloved she grew, a happy child.
Cf. “among those who had so dearly beloved them” (Alma 27:4).

Here are two more:

1788 GALE CW0109145252
Commend me to your family; may your charms and your virtues be beloved as I have beloved them, and you will never want a friend.

1839 Google Books cq4RAAAAYAAJ
She had beloved him in her youth, with that one, single-minded, constant, never-ending love,

Someone found an example of "counselling God" similar to “counsel the Lord in all thy doings” (Alma 37:37):

1873 Google Books 3Z4CAAAAQAAJ
Yes: believing their story, and not having counselled God first, he [Joshua] entered into a league with them.

It would be good to find another, since the OED's latest example is 1547.
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Image

Paged 402 of Early English Plays; Being a Selection From the Early Dramatic Writers. Volume II. Printed in 1814.

While it was printed in 1814, it is "early" English plays, so I don't know if this fits the bill that you're looking for.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Agosh
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Agosh »

That's a good example, thanks, but it's from the early 1600s. Mostly looking for original examples from the late 1700s and early 1800s.

For detect meaning "expose (a person) divulging his secrets or making known his guilt or crime" (def. Second Amendment), I found these:

1808 IoI4AQAAMAAJ
for he has completely detected himself, and no one else!
1812 qzNHZ5j9vkcC
How much soever a writer . . may wish to conceal himself, yet . . the extent of his learning . . at times . . must detect him:

The latest quote in the OED is 1645, so if I'm reading these right, then the dictionary's in real need of updating, and so is Skousen 2018.
_moksha
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _moksha »

I think the idea of a 15th Century writers guild communicating through the medium of a seer stone is a fun idea. Sort of like Nephites wearing tennis shoes. Both ideas add whimsy to the overall story.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

I apologize if this doesn’t work either for what you’re after, but I'm having a bit of fun spelunking.

From Burke the sublime, to Anstruther and Grey,
You give ev’ry one a smart last in your way,
That they’d readily palm any papers they found
For evidence legal, substantial, and sound:
And protest in a huff, if a doubt cross their words,
As if any trash might suffice for the Lords.


From Page 136 of The Letters of Simkin the Second...

Published 1789, and given the subject matter, it's doubtful it was written before 1788 (sans peepstones).
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Agosh
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Re: Checking Skousen's archaic vocabulary items

Post by _Agosh »

And protest in a huff, if a doubt cross their words,

This seems like a possible example, but plugging in contradict makes it seem less likely:
"if a doubt contradicts their words". Not sure doubt is contradictory; there's doubt but no contradictory statement. It might be a poetic extension of "cross one's mind". A prose example would be good not involving doubt.
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