Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

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_Dan Vogel
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Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Part 3 (of 9) of my interview with Rick Bennett of Gospel Tangents has been posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMX3T7l2GwI

Some Mormons evidently don't like my appearance on Gospel Tangents.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _Shulem »

Brigham Young Journal of Discourses wrote: If there is a despicable character on the face of the earth, it is an apostate from this Church. He is a traitor who has deceived his best friends, betrayed his trust, and forfeited every principle of honor that God placed within him. They may think they are respected, but they are not. They are disgraced in their own eyes. There is not much honesty within them; they have forfeited their heaven, sold their birthright, and betrayed their friends. What will the devil do with such characters? Will he have them in his kingdom? Yes, he will be obliged to, because he is an apostate himself. He apostatized from the Celestial Kingdom, and was thrust down to hell. Yet, when apostates get to his kingdom, he will say—"I do not like you, for you are just as mean as I am. I was a traitor and a liar, and I am yet. I despise myself and every character that betrays his trust." That is all I wish to say on that point. Let apostates go.


According to Brigham Young you're going to hell, Dan Vogel. You're not an honest person!

Tell me Dan, in just a few sentences: What do you think of Brigham Young? You talk a lot about Joseph Smith. But what about ole' Briggy?

I view Joseph Smith as a conman but Briggy as a despot.

:lol:
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _grindael »

I was really intrigued by your comment about Smith's claimed 1820 vision, that you called it (basically) a standard Christian conversion experience, A "born again" type of experience is what you called it. I think pretty much everyone agrees that Smith's story "evolved". (Even the apologists). But what I am getting from you here is that you believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Joseph did not have a "vision" of Jesus at all.

I have always believed this, (after I studied the evidence). What strikes me is what Smith said later, and you get what really happened if you just know where to look. Alex Niebaur in '44:

Br. Joseph tolt us the first call he had a Revival Meeting, his Mother, Br. and Sisters got Religion, he wanted to get Religion too wanted to feel & sho shout like the rest but could feel nothing... https://scottwoodward.org/firstvision_a ... _1844.html


He wanted to "get Religion too...". He "wanted to feel & shout like the rest..."

But here you have it... "BUT COULD FEEL NOTHING". That is why he claimed that all the churches were corrupt and wrong. He could not have the conversion experience. This is Smith posturing later... because we know from Orsamus Turner:

But Joseph had a little ambition, and some very laudable aspirations; the mother's intellect occasionally shone out in him feebly, especially when he used to help us to solve some portentous questions of moral or political ethics, in our juvenile debating club, which we moved down to the old red school-house on Durfee street, to get rid of the annoyance of critics that used to drop in upon us in the village; amid, subsequently, after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings. http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1851Trn1.htm


What exactly is a "spark of Methodism?" This debating club and Smith's knowledge of the Bible helped him to become an Exhorter.

I think this helps understand why Smith also wanted to shut down William's Debating School in Kirtland. Too many people were ... how did Smith put it...

at evening Bishop [Newel K.] Whitney his wife Father and Mother, and wife Sister in law, came in and invited me and my wife to go with them & visit Father Smith & family my wife was unwell and could not go; however I and my Scribe went, when we got there, we found that some of the young Elders, were about engaging in a debate, upon the subject of miracles, the question was this; was or was it not the design of Christ to establish his gospel by miracles,
After an interesting debate of three hours or more, during which time much talent was displayed, it was decided by the presidents of the debate in the negative; which was a righteous descision I discovered in this debate, much warmth displayed, to[o] much zeal for mastery, to[o] much of that enthusiasm that characterises a lawyer at the bar, who is determined to defend his cause right or wrong. I therefore availed myself of this favorable opportunity, to drop a few words upon this subject by way of advise, that they might improve their minds and cultivate their powers of intellect in a proper manner, that they might not incur the displeasure of heaven, that they should handle sacred things verry sacredly, and with a due deference to the opinions of others and with an eye single to the glory of God (Joseph Smith Journal, Nov. 18, 1835)


I think it brought back unpleasant memories for Joseph, and he wasn't the center of attention at these debates. He wanted to be in control of "sacred things" and dictate how everything was going to be and this encroached on his turf. Joseph denied it to William, but he wanted the School shut down before the night of the altercation when they got in a fight at their Father's/William's house.

In the video you also speak about Joseph's age (15 in 1821) and in my analysis I've come to the conclusion that Smith was claiming he was 16 years old when this vision of Jesus took place. Here are my thoughts on it. Joseph is all over the place with how he identifies his age in this document. He begins with his 10th year (1816):

at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Seignior moved to Palmyra Ontario County


So Joseph is claiming that he is 10 in 1816, so we can break it down year by year this way (just for illustrative purposes):

1816 - 10
1817 - 11
1818 - 12
1819 - 13
1820 - 14
1821 - 15
1822 - 16
1823 - 17
1827 - 21

Joseph then mentions what happened when he turned 12 (1818):

At about the age of twelve years my mind become seriously imprest [p. 1] with regard to the all importent concerns of for the wellfare of my immortal Soul which led me to searching the scriptures believeing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them and my intimate acquaintance with those of differant denominations led me to marvel excedingly for I discovered that <​they did not adorn​> instead of adorning their profession by a holy walk and Godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in that sacred depository this was a grief to my Soul


So at the age of 12 Smith claims that he knew (from Bible study) that all the churches were corrupt. There were camp meetings going on in Palmyra in 1818. (Quinn) Joseph's summary here is very interesting:

thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become excedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that mand <​mankind​> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament and I felt to mourn for my own sins


So he is claiming that from the age of 12 to 15 (1818 to 1821) he "pondered" and became convicted of his sins. He repeats the claim that all of the churches were corrupt or had apostatized. Joseph is not claiming that this is from 11 years old to 14 years old, but it is what it states, from the age of 12 years old to the age of 15 years old this happened. He then gets into the claimed vision of Jesus. Now, Joseph has already stated that he was 15 years old by this point. But he inserts this into his vision of Jesus:

<​I​> considered all these things and that <​that​> being seeketh such to worshep him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <​the​> attitude of calling upon the Lord <​in the 16th year of my age​> a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <​Lord​> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord...


So why does Joseph even need to insert an age here? He has already stated he reached his fifteenth year. But he goes out of his way to insert that he was 16 years old when the vision of Jesus took place. The reason that I've come to this conclusion is the way he describes his next vision (of the angel). But before that, he writes this:

my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and ...


We all know that his mother and four of his siblings joined the Presbyterians in 1824. This wouldn't work with this version of his History and Joseph knows it. (One reason why I feel he abandoned it, he didn't have a coherent timeline down). But what really clinches that he meant when he was 16 years old is what he writes about the visit of the angel:

and it came to pass when I was seventeen years of age I called again upon the Lord and he shewed unto me a heavenly vision


When he was "17 years of age" he claims to get the visit from the angel about the gold plates. He claims to have the vision of Jesus when he was "​in the 16th year of my age". One year earlier. And then again, when he claims to take possession of the plates and marries Emma:

therefore I was chastened and saught diligently to obtain the plates and obtained them not untill I was twenty one years of age and in this year I was married to Emma Hale Daughtr of Isaach [Isaac] Hale who lived in Harmony Susquehan[n]a County Pensylvania on the 18th January AD, 1827, on the 22d day of Sept of this same year I obtained the plat[e]s—


So we have Smith claiming that he first gets excited about religion in the 12th year of his age, and "pondered" from then until he was in the 15th year of his age, and then in the 16th year of his age he has the vision of Jesus and in the 17th year of his age it is an angel and then in the 21st year of his age he marries and takes possession of the gold plates. One reason why I believe that Smith wasn't doing what he did later in 1838 in describing his age at the time of the claimed first vision, which was like this:

I was at this time in my fifteenth year,


is because he was having a problem with dates. He writes (in the 32 History):

and it was on the 22d day of Sept. AD 1◊82 1822 and thus he appeared unto me three times in one night


If you add 1805 + 17 you get 1822. This is what I think Smith did. He knew he was 17, but wasn't thinking about how his birthday was so late in the previous year. (You don't count your birth year) Therefore, he was depending on remembering how old he was (not the year it was) when he was describing events.

He doesn't write that it was in 1816 that his father left for New York, it was when he was in the tenth year of his age. He keeps this up thoughout the history. That's my take on it.

I was also intrigued by what you said about the Articles and Covenants. You said the distinguishing feature of being in the Q12 was seeing Jesus. And then, this (which surprised me)

Dan: The 1832 account has Joseph seeing Jesus. This would be the FIRST TIME that we know of that he said anything. Cause the Articles and Covenants didn't say anything. Bennett: Up until then it had only been Moroni, right? Dan: ONLY MORONI, YES. When you started to talk about the significance of Joseph's church, it always started with Moroni, and revealing of the plates.


It has been my interpretation all along (of D&C 20) that there is no "allusion" to any claimed 1820 vision as some have advocated.

6. For, after that it truly was manifested unto the first elder [Joseph Smith] that he had received remission of his sins,[1823 by the angel] he was entangled again in the vanities of the world, 7. but after truly repenting, [In 1827 after his Examination for Glass Looking] God visited him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all whiteness, and gave unto him commandments which inspired him from on high, and gave unto him power, by the means which was before prepared that he should translate a book;


This is quite simple and not some kind of cryptic allusion to a claimed 1820 vision. The Articles and Covenants say that “after it was truly manifested that he [Joseph] had received a remission of his sins”, (the first visit of the angel) then he “was entangled again in the vanities of the world,” (the moneydigging) then “after truly repenting” (quitting the company of money diggers) an angel visited him who gave him commandments and “power” to translate a book “by the means which was before prepared.”

What does this mean? Mormon Apologists would have you believe that Joseph is referring to a vision that he claimed he had when he was fourteen years old, in the spring of 1820, and that after this vision (between 1820 and 1823) Joseph was “entangled again in the vanities of the world” and that he repented and then God sent Joseph an angel who gave him the means to translate a set of gold plates that this angel had buried when he was a mortal man.

There are many problems with this explanation for the verses in D&C Section 20. For example, in their 1834-5 History of the Church published in The Latter-Day Saints’ Messenger And Advocate , Cowdery writes that Joseph was 17 when he experienced the religious excitement that led him to first “call upon the Lord in secret for a full manifestation of divine approbation, and for, to him, the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him.”

Cowdery then relates that in answer to this prayer by Joseph, who was a “penitent sinner”, an angel appeared to Joseph and told him that he was “sent by commandment of the Lord, to deliver a special message, and to witness to him that his sins were forgiven, and that his prayers were heard.”

This then, would be the first instance of Joseph receiving any kind of heavenly manifestation, and also having it confirmed that his sins were forgiven. At this time (1823) Joseph did not get any “power”, nor the “means which was before prepared” to translate the gold plates. In fact, in 1832 the Fredonia Censor published that,

Joseph Smith, then an inhabitant of the state of New-York, county of Ontario, and town of Manchester. Having repented of his sins, but not attached himself to any party of Christians, owing to the numerous divisions among them, and being in doubt what his duty was, he had recourse prayer. After retiring to bed one night, he was visited by an Angel and directed to proceed to a hill in the neighborhood where he would find a stone box containing a quantity of Gold plates. “Mormonism,” Fredonia Censor, March 7, 1832.


But they leave something out. The FOUR YEARS between 1823 and 1827 when Smith was involved with the moneydiggers. THEN, after this, he was again visited by the angel and got the plates. This is exactly what Joseph and Oliver describe happened in their 1834-35 History. The Articles and Covenants of the church describes the period between 1823 and 1827, when Joseph became involved with a band of money diggers, which included his own father, which ultimately led to his arrest for “glass looking” in 1826. The reason that it could not be describing the period from 1820 to 1823 is simply because Joseph supposedly did not receive any “power” from the angel until the fall of 1827, after he had “truly” repented. It was then he supposedly took possession of the plates and got the powerful "spectacles" in which he could see anything. He told his mother he was more excited about those, than the plates. According to the history published by Joseph Smith himself, [1834-35] his “recourse prayer” took place in 1823.

I am so glad that you have said that D&C 20 is only about the angel. I heartily agree!

The stuff about baptism, great! "New revelation and that is the new authority..." That is why he called it the NEW and everlasting covenant, it needed a new "revelation" not just a commandment.

You also mentioned that it was of import that Joseph claimed that the Lord had appeared to Oliver and showed him the plates. I thought it interesting that this was also what Joseph claimed about Martin Harris:

“on the 22d day of Sept of this same year [1827] I obtained the plates and the in December following we mooved to Susquehana by the assistence of a man by the name of Martin Haris who became convinced of the visions and gave me fifty Dollars to bare my expences and because of his faith and this rightheous deed the Lord appeared unto him in a vision and shewed unto him his marvilous work which he was about to do and he imediately came to Su[s]quehanna and said the Lord had shown him that he must go to new York City with some of the characters so we proceeded to coppy some of them”


When Harris was interviewed by Joel Tiffany, he told a different story:

The first time I heard of the matter, [the gold plates] my brother Presarved Harris, who had been in the village of Palmyra, asked me if [I] had heard about Joseph Smith, jr., having a golden Bible. My thoughts were that the money-diggers had probably dug up an old brass kettle, or something of the kind. I thought no more of it. This was about the first of October, 1827.


He then recounted that after Joseph sent Lucy to him and he visited the Smiths, he:

retired to my bedroom and prayed God to show me concerning these things, and I covenanted that if it was his work and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He then showed me that It was his work, and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the gentiles to fulfill his word, that the first shall be last and the last first. He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord’s work, and I was under a covenant to bring it forth.


There was no appearance of "the Lord" to Harris as Smith writes in 1832. But here he is claiming the same thing about Cowdery:

I obtained them [the spectacles & plates] again when Lord appeared unto a young man by the name of Oliver Cowd[e]ry and shewed unto him the plates in a vision and also the truth of the work and what the Lord was about to do through me his unworthy Servant therefore he was desiorous to come and write for me and to translate


I'm wondering if at some time Smith claimed the same thing about David Whitmer also?

So how autobiographical is the stuff in the Book of Mormon? It has this happening to Mormon:

6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla. ...

15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.

16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

17 But I did remain among them, but I was forbidden to preach unto them, because of the hardness of their hearts; and because of the hardness of their hearts the land was cursed for their sake.

18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.


So he has "the Lord" visiting Mormon but that never happened to Smith (when he was around 15 years of age)?

Also, Joseph's father never took him to New York, he went with his mother. But there appeared to be all kinds of slippery treasures round about the Land of Palmyra... Loosely autobiographical... perhaps he wanted to be like his invented character Mormon... He isn't thinking of being an Apostle when he "translates" this, so he later (1832) takes the story he had come up with for Mormon (based loosely on his own life) and applies it to himself. He has now seen Jesus, (like Mormon) and is an Apostle because of it (like Mormon).

Great segment. If anyone hasn't listened, what are you waiting for?
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Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
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One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Brigham Young Journal of Discourses wrote: If there is a despicable character on the face of the earth, it is an apostate from this Church. He is a traitor who has deceived his best friends, betrayed his trust, and forfeited every principle of honor that God placed within him. They may think they are respected, but they are not. They are disgraced in their own eyes. There is not much honesty within them; they have forfeited their heaven, sold their birthright, and betrayed their friends. What will the devil do with such characters? Will he have them in his kingdom? Yes, he will be obliged to, because he is an apostate himself. He apostatized from the Celestial Kingdom, and was thrust down to hell. Yet, when apostates get to his kingdom, he will say—"I do not like you, for you are just as mean as I am. I was a traitor and a liar, and I am yet. I despise myself and every character that betrays his trust." That is all I wish to say on that point. Let apostates go.


According to Brigham Young you're going to hell, Dan Vogel. You're not an honest person!

Tell me Dan, in just a few sentences: What do you think of Brigham Young? You talk a lot about Joseph Smith. But what about ole' Briggy?

I view Joseph Smith as a conman but Briggy as a despot.

:lol:


Brigham is a small-minded bore next to Joseph Smith.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _Dan Vogel »

grindael wrote:I was really intrigued by your comment about Smith's claimed 1820 vision, that you called it (basically) a standard Christian conversion experience, A "born again" type of experience is what you called it. I think pretty much everyone agrees that Smith's story "evolved". (Even the apologists). But what I am getting from you here is that you believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Joseph did not have a "vision" of Jesus at all.

I have always believed this, (after I studied the evidence). What strikes me is what Smith said later, and you get what really happened if you just know where to look. Alex Niebaur in '44:

Br. Joseph tolt us the first call he had a Revival Meeting, his Mother, Br. and Sisters got Religion, he wanted to get Religion too wanted to feel & sho shout like the rest but could feel nothing... https://scottwoodward.org/firstvision_a ... _1844.html


He wanted to "get Religion too...". He "wanted to feel & shout like the rest..."

But here you have it... "BUT COULD FEEL NOTHING". That is why he claimed that all the churches were corrupt and wrong. He could not have the conversion experience. This is Smith posturing later... because we know from Orsamus Turner:

But Joseph had a little ambition, and some very laudable aspirations; the mother's intellect occasionally shone out in him feebly, especially when he used to help us to solve some portentous questions of moral or political ethics, in our juvenile debating club, which we moved down to the old red school-house on Durfee street, to get rid of the annoyance of critics that used to drop in upon us in the village; amid, subsequently, after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings. http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1851Trn1.htm


What exactly is a "spark of Methodism?" This debating club and Smith's knowledge of the Bible helped him to become an Exhorter.

I think this helps understand why Smith also wanted to shut down William's Debating School in Kirtland. Too many people were ... how did Smith put it...

at evening Bishop [Newel K.] Whitney his wife Father and Mother, and wife Sister in law, came in and invited me and my wife to go with them & visit Father Smith & family my wife was unwell and could not go; however I and my Scribe went, when we got there, we found that some of the young Elders, were about engaging in a debate, upon the subject of miracles, the question was this; was or was it not the design of Christ to establish his gospel by miracles,
After an interesting debate of three hours or more, during which time much talent was displayed, it was decided by the presidents of the debate in the negative; which was a righteous descision I discovered in this debate, much warmth displayed, to[o] much zeal for mastery, to[o] much of that enthusiasm that characterises a lawyer at the bar, who is determined to defend his cause right or wrong. I therefore availed myself of this favorable opportunity, to drop a few words upon this subject by way of advise, that they might improve their minds and cultivate their powers of intellect in a proper manner, that they might not incur the displeasure of heaven, that they should handle sacred things verry sacredly, and with a due deference to the opinions of others and with an eye single to the glory of God (Joseph Smith Journal, Nov. 18, 1835)


I think it brought back unpleasant memories for Joseph, and he wasn't the center of attention at these debates. He wanted to be in control of "sacred things" and dictate how everything was going to be and this encroached on his turf. Joseph denied it to William, but he wanted the School shut down before the night of the altercation when they got in a fight at their Father's/William's house.

In the video you also speak about Joseph's age (15 in 1821) and in my analysis I've come to the conclusion that Smith was claiming he was 16 years old when this vision of Jesus took place. Here are my thoughts on it. Joseph is all over the place with how he identifies his age in this document. He begins with his 10th year (1816):

at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Seignior moved to Palmyra Ontario County


So Joseph is claiming that he is 10 in 1816, so we can break it down year by year this way (just for illustrative purposes):

1816 - 10
1817 - 11
1818 - 12
1819 - 13
1820 - 14
1821 - 15
1822 - 16
1823 - 17
1827 - 21

Joseph then mentions what happened when he turned 12 (1818):

At about the age of twelve years my mind become seriously imprest [p. 1] with regard to the all importent concerns of for the wellfare of my immortal Soul which led me to searching the scriptures believeing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them and my intimate acquaintance with those of differant denominations led me to marvel excedingly for I discovered that <​they did not adorn​> instead of adorning their profession by a holy walk and Godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in that sacred depository this was a grief to my Soul


So at the age of 12 Smith claims that he knew (from Bible study) that all the churches were corrupt. There were camp meetings going on in Palmyra in 1818. (Quinn) Joseph's summary here is very interesting:

thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become excedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that mand <​mankind​> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament and I felt to mourn for my own sins


So he is claiming that from the age of 12 to 15 (1818 to 1821) he "pondered" and became convicted of his sins. He repeats the claim that all of the churches were corrupt or had apostatized. Joseph is not claiming that this is from 11 years old to 14 years old, but it is what it states, from the age of 12 years old to the age of 15 years old this happened. He then gets into the claimed vision of Jesus. Now, Joseph has already stated that he was 15 years old by this point. But he inserts this into his vision of Jesus:

<​I​> considered all these things and that <​that​> being seeketh such to worshep him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <​the​> attitude of calling upon the Lord <​in the 16th year of my age​> a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <​Lord​> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord...


So why does Joseph even need to insert an age here? He has already stated he reached his fifteenth year. But he goes out of his way to insert that he was 16 years old when the vision of Jesus took place. The reason that I've come to this conclusion is the way he describes his next vision (of the angel). But before that, he writes this:

my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and ...


We all know that his mother and four of his siblings joined the Presbyterians in 1824. This wouldn't work with this version of his History and Joseph knows it. (One reason why I feel he abandoned it, he didn't have a coherent timeline down). But what really clinches that he meant when he was 16 years old is what he writes about the visit of the angel:

and it came to pass when I was seventeen years of age I called again upon the Lord and he shewed unto me a heavenly vision


When he was "17 years of age" he claims to get the visit from the angel about the gold plates. He claims to have the vision of Jesus when he was "​in the 16th year of my age". One year earlier. And then again, when he claims to take possession of the plates and marries Emma:

therefore I was chastened and saught diligently to obtain the plates and obtained them not untill I was twenty one years of age and in this year I was married to Emma Hale Daughtr of Isaach [Isaac] Hale who lived in Harmony Susquehan[n]a County Pensylvania on the 18th January AD, 1827, on the 22d day of Sept of this same year I obtained the plat[e]s—


So we have Smith claiming that he first gets excited about religion in the 12th year of his age, and "pondered" from then until he was in the 15th year of his age, and then in the 16th year of his age he has the vision of Jesus and in the 17th year of his age it is an angel and then in the 21st year of his age he marries and takes possession of the gold plates. One reason why I believe that Smith wasn't doing what he did later in 1838 in describing his age at the time of the claimed first vision, which was like this:

I was at this time in my fifteenth year,


is because he was having a problem with dates. He writes (in the 32 History):

and it was on the 22d day of Sept. AD 1◊82 1822 and thus he appeared unto me three times in one night


If you add 1805 + 17 you get 1822. This is what I think Smith did. He knew he was 17, but wasn't thinking about how his birthday was so late in the previous year. (You don't count your birth year) Therefore, he was depending on remembering how old he was (not the year it was) when he was describing events.

He doesn't write that it was in 1816 that his father left for New York, it was when he was in the tenth year of his age. He keeps this up thoughout the history. That's my take on it.

I was also intrigued by what you said about the Articles and Covenants. You said the distinguishing feature of being in the Q12 was seeing Jesus. And then, this (which surprised me)

Dan: The 1832 account has Joseph seeing Jesus. This would be the FIRST TIME that we know of that he said anything. Cause the Articles and Covenants didn't say anything. Bennett: Up until then it had only been Moroni, right? Dan: ONLY MORONI, YES. When you started to talk about the significance of Joseph's church, it always started with Moroni, and revealing of the plates.


It has been my interpretation all along (of D&C 20) that there is no "allusion" to any claimed 1820 vision as some have advocated.

6. For, after that it truly was manifested unto the first elder [Joseph Smith] that he had received remission of his sins,[1823 by the angel] he was entangled again in the vanities of the world, 7. but after truly repenting, [In 1827 after his Examination for Glass Looking] God visited him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all whiteness, and gave unto him commandments which inspired him from on high, and gave unto him power, by the means which was before prepared that he should translate a book;


This is quite simple and not some kind of cryptic allusion to a claimed 1820 vision. The Articles and Covenants say that “after it was truly manifested that he [Joseph] had received a remission of his sins”, (the first visit of the angel) then he “was entangled again in the vanities of the world,” (the moneydigging) then “after truly repenting” (quitting the company of money diggers) an angel visited him who gave him commandments and “power” to translate a book “by the means which was before prepared.”

What does this mean? Mormon Apologists would have you believe that Joseph is referring to a vision that he claimed he had when he was fourteen years old, in the spring of 1820, and that after this vision (between 1820 and 1823) Joseph was “entangled again in the vanities of the world” and that he repented and then God sent Joseph an angel who gave him the means to translate a set of gold plates that this angel had buried when he was a mortal man.

There are many problems with this explanation for the verses in D&C Section 20. For example, in their 1834-5 History of the Church published in The Latter-Day Saints’ Messenger And Advocate , Cowdery writes that Joseph was 17 when he experienced the religious excitement that led him to first “call upon the Lord in secret for a full manifestation of divine approbation, and for, to him, the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him.”

Cowdery then relates that in answer to this prayer by Joseph, who was a “penitent sinner”, an angel appeared to Joseph and told him that he was “sent by commandment of the Lord, to deliver a special message, and to witness to him that his sins were forgiven, and that his prayers were heard.”

This then, would be the first instance of Joseph receiving any kind of heavenly manifestation, and also having it confirmed that his sins were forgiven. At this time (1823) Joseph did not get any “power”, nor the “means which was before prepared” to translate the gold plates. In fact, in 1832 the Fredonia Censor published that,

Joseph Smith, then an inhabitant of the state of New-York, county of Ontario, and town of Manchester. Having repented of his sins, but not attached himself to any party of Christians, owing to the numerous divisions among them, and being in doubt what his duty was, he had recourse prayer. After retiring to bed one night, he was visited by an Angel and directed to proceed to a hill in the neighborhood where he would find a stone box containing a quantity of Gold plates. “Mormonism,” Fredonia Censor, March 7, 1832.


But they leave something out. The FOUR YEARS between 1823 and 1827 when Smith was involved with the moneydiggers. THEN, after this, he was again visited by the angel and got the plates. This is exactly what Joseph and Oliver describe happened in their 1834-35 History. The Articles and Covenants of the church describes the period between 1823 and 1827, when Joseph became involved with a band of money diggers, which included his own father, which ultimately led to his arrest for “glass looking” in 1826. The reason that it could not be describing the period from 1820 to 1823 is simply because Joseph supposedly did not receive any “power” from the angel until the fall of 1827, after he had “truly” repented. It was then he supposedly took possession of the plates and got the powerful "spectacles" in which he could see anything. He told his mother he was more excited about those, than the plates. According to the history published by Joseph Smith himself, [1834-35] his “recourse prayer” took place in 1823.

I am so glad that you have said that D&C 20 is only about the angel. I heartily agree!

The stuff about baptism, great! "New revelation and that is the new authority..." That is why he called it the NEW and everlasting covenant, it needed a new "revelation" not just a commandment.

You also mentioned that it was of import that Joseph claimed that the Lord had appeared to Oliver and showed him the plates. I thought it interesting that this was also what Joseph claimed about Martin Harris:

“on the 22d day of Sept of this same year [1827] I obtained the plates and the in December following we mooved to Susquehana by the assistence of a man by the name of Martin Haris who became convinced of the visions and gave me fifty Dollars to bare my expences and because of his faith and this rightheous deed the Lord appeared unto him in a vision and shewed unto him his marvilous work which he was about to do and he imediately came to Su[s]quehanna and said the Lord had shown him that he must go to new York City with some of the characters so we proceeded to coppy some of them”


When Harris was interviewed by Joel Tiffany, he told a different story:

The first time I heard of the matter, [the gold plates] my brother Presarved Harris, who had been in the village of Palmyra, asked me if [I] had heard about Joseph Smith, jr., having a golden Bible. My thoughts were that the money-diggers had probably dug up an old brass kettle, or something of the kind. I thought no more of it. This was about the first of October, 1827.


He then recounted that after Joseph sent Lucy to him and he visited the Smiths, he:

retired to my bedroom and prayed God to show me concerning these things, and I covenanted that if it was his work and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He then showed me that It was his work, and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the gentiles to fulfill his word, that the first shall be last and the last first. He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord’s work, and I was under a covenant to bring it forth.


There was no appearance of "the Lord" to Harris as Smith writes in 1832. But here he is claiming the same thing about Cowdery:

I obtained them [the spectacles & plates] again when Lord appeared unto a young man by the name of Oliver Cowd[e]ry and shewed unto him the plates in a vision and also the truth of the work and what the Lord was about to do through me his unworthy Servant therefore he was desiorous to come and write for me and to translate


I'm wondering if at some time Smith claimed the same thing about David Whitmer also?

So how autobiographical is the stuff in the Book of Mormon? It has this happening to Mormon:

6 And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla. ...

15 And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.

16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

17 But I did remain among them, but I was forbidden to preach unto them, because of the hardness of their hearts; and because of the hardness of their hearts the land was cursed for their sake.

18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.


So he has "the Lord" visiting Mormon but that never happened to Smith (when he was around 15 years of age)?

Also, Joseph's father never took him to New York, he went with his mother. But there appeared to be all kinds of slippery treasures round about the Land of Palmyra... Loosely autobiographical... perhaps he wanted to be like his invented character Mormon... He isn't thinking of being an Apostle when he "translates" this, so he later (1832) takes the story he had come up with for Mormon (based loosely on his own life) and applies it to himself. He has now seen Jesus, (like Mormon) and is an Apostle because of it (like Mormon).

Great segment. If anyone hasn't listened, what are you waiting for?


Thanks for the discussion. Mormon's being "visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus" is not necessarily a vision; it sounds more like a born again experience. One of my videos on the First Vision compares this phrase to New Testament passages as well as Alma's statements on being born of God.

I think the phrase Mormon uses "carried" by his father possibly alludes to Joseph Smith's being unable to walk on the trip from Vermont to New York.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_grindael
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _grindael »

I agree Dan that Mormon is something of an autobiographical character, at least from childhood and perhaps the war mirrors the one of 1812, or Revolutionary War. But it's pretty loose and he has Mormon with that adolescent angst (but religious) seeing the Lord at a young age, something I'm sure Smith wished had happened to him instead of a mere spark of Methodism. :wink:

I think Joseph just always wanted to stand out in a crowd but he wanted to fit in, and being a part of a debating club or just another Methodist Exhorter wasn't cutting it for him even though deep down he wanted to get religion. I think his peeping really fired him up because he was the final word and had absolute control over how things went and I think he craved that. He might have tried to incorporate his peeping into his Methodist Exhorting and got reprimanded for telling tall tales... and that turned him against it all for good, just like his father.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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Re: Part 3 of Dan Vogel's Interview with Gospel Tangents

Post by _Dan Vogel »

grindael wrote:I agree Dan that Mormon is something of an autobiographical character, at least from childhood and perhaps the war mirrors the one of 1812, or Revolutionary War. But it's pretty loose and he has Mormon with that adolescent angst (but religious) seeing the Lord at a young age, something I'm sure Smith wished had happened to him instead of a mere spark of Methodism. :wink:

I think Joseph just always wanted to stand out in a crowd but he wanted to fit in, and being a part of a debating club or just another Methodist Exhorter wasn't cutting it for him even though deep down he wanted to get religion. I think his peeping really fired him up because he was the final word and had absolute control over how things went and I think he craved that. He might have tried to incorporate his peeping into his Methodist Exhorting and got reprimanded for telling tall tales... and that turned him against it all for good, just like his father.


The spark of Methodism seems to refer to an earlier period, possibly 1818, or a couple of years later if not associated with a revival in Palmyra. The not being able to feel and shout probably refers to 1824-25, when he couldn't do so with other family members. I take this to mean he could not decide because the emotional price was too high. The implication that Alvin had gone to hell raise the emotional level of such a decision in the Smith home.

The war in Mormon possibly refers to the Seminole War of 1817.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
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