Story About Joseph & William Smith On MD&D (grindael Input?)

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_Madison54
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Story About Joseph & William Smith On MD&D (grindael Input?)

Post by _Madison54 »

I just read this story that was posted over on the MD&D board about Joseph and William Smith. The person who posted it is hoping to get it published. I'd never heard about this event and would love to know how accurate it is. Grindael (or anyone)?

Here's the post:

An interesting event in Kirtland...a Smith Family feud

If you have the time and inclination, you may wish to read this article I wrote about an event in Kirtland in which Joseph and William Smith were involved in a physical altercation that had a negative impact on their family and the whole Church. Your comments are welcomed!


Kirtland, Ohio, Wednesday, November 18, 1835. Joseph Smith spoke on the topic of the Resurrection at the funeral of Preserved Harris's father. It was a cool and cloudy day. Joseph, Emma, and Lucy Smith enjoyed a pleasant ride in their wagon. That night, Bishop Newel K. Whitney, his wife and parents, came by to invite Joseph and Emma to visit Joseph's parents with them. The elderly Smiths lived with their son William. Emma was ill, so Joseph went with his scribe instead. When they arrived, they found a number of the elders engaged in a debate on the subject of miracles. Lasting over three hours, the debate was lively and interesting. Joseph was delighted, but he observed that the debate had been a little too zealous, resembling more the arguments of a lawyer in court defending his position right or wrong. He took the opportunity to advise the brethren to cultivate their intellects and improve their minds in a more proper manner, so as to please God, by handling sacred subject sacredly and respecting the opinions of others.

Several weeks later, on Saturday, December 12, Joseph spent the morning reading. Around noon some young adults stopped by his home to see the Egyptian records he was translating. That evening he attended another debate at William Smith's home. Debate groups were popular in America at the time. William had organized the debate school to discuss gospel topics. A topic would be chosen. Then the brethren picked which side to defend. Joseph took the side of the affirmative on the question, "Was it necessary for God to reveal Himself to mankind in order for their happiness?" The debate was spirited and impressive. Joseph spoke last, but before he could finish, he was called out to administer to Sister Angeline Works, who was seriously ill.

Wednesday, December 16, was an extremely cold day. Joseph attended a presidency meeting. In the afternoon, William McLellin, Jared Carter, and Brigham Young stopped by to visit. Joseph showed them the Egyptian records. He explained many things concerning the dealings of God with the ancients and the formation of the planetary system.That evening Joseph went again to William Smith's home to finish the debate of the previous Saturday. He was looking forward to an enjoyable evening with the brethren, sharing information with the help of the Spirit of the Lord. But he had some unaccountably depressing feelings that all was not right. He enjoyed the debate (his side was declared winner), but at the conclusion he expressed some misgivings about the activity. Some of the brethren also questioned whether the debates were an appropriate thing to do.

William, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, enjoyed the debating school that he had organized in his home, so he wished to continue with a new subject. He argued with Brother McLellin, also a member of the Quorum of Twelve. Joseph asked him to calm down, as did their brother Hyrum. William took great offense and became angry. He thought everyone was criticizing him personally. Seeing the futility of trying to reason with William, Joseph said, "You are as ugly as the Devil!" Father Smith told everyone to be silent. William, however, said he could speak whatever and whenever he wanted in his own home. Joseph then said that he could speak, too, because this was also his father's house and Joseph had built it! Later, Joseph clarified that he had "helped finish it." Joseph decided it was time to leave.

Tempers flared and harsh words were spoken. William started toward Joseph who then removed his coat to defend himself. William interpreted this as an invitation to fight. He grabbed Joseph and threw him to the ground. In addition to a childhood illness and surgery that weakened his leg, Joseph had been hurt earlier by a mob attack and was unable to fend off his brother. William also attacked others, including Elder J. Carter. Some brethren broke them apart. Joseph left the house in dismay. All the good feelings and intentions he had before going to William's home - brotherly kindness, love, anticipation, charity - were gone, replaced with anger, malice, and bruises. He was unable to sit or stand without help.

The next day, Thursday, December 17, Joseph stayed home, feeling very poorly. Orson Hyde called by to settle a matter with the Prophet. That night Joseph's mother and father came in to talk about the family problems. Joseph noted that they felt terribly about what had happened. He invited them to move into his home. They agreed to do so as soon as arrangements could be made.

William was so embarrassed by his behavior that he could not speak directly with Joseph, so on Friday he wrote a letter of apology and sent it to Hyrum to deliver to Joseph. Hyrum acted as a go-between and brought the letter to Joseph. They spent several hours discussing the difficulty between William and Joseph. In his letter, William apologized and asked for Joseph's forgiveness. He expressed sorrow for his actions to the extent that he even asked to be removed from the Quorum of the Twelve.

"Though I do not know but I have forfeited all right and title to the word brother, in consequence of what I have done, for I consider myself, that I am unworthy to be called one, after coming to myself and considering upon what I have done, I feel as though it was a duty, to make a humble confession to you for what I have done or what took place the other evening... I was called to an account by the 12, yesterday for my conduct, or they desired to know my mind or determination and what I was going to do. I told them that on reflection upon the many difficulties that I had had with the church and the much disgrace I had brought upon myself in consequence of these things and also that my health would no permit me to go to school to [make] any preparations for the endowment.... that it would be better for them to appoint one in the office that would be better able to fill it, and by doing this they would throw me into the hands of the church, and leave me where I was before I was chosen. Then I would not be in a situation to bring so much disgrace upon the cause, when I fell into temptation, and perhaps by this I might obtain Salvation. You know my passions and the danger of falling from so high a station, and thus by withdrawing from the office of the apostleship while there is salvation for me, and remaining a member in the church; I feel afraid if I don't do this it will be worse for me...Do so if the Lord will have mercy on me and let me remain a member of the church, and then I can travel and preach when I am able - do not think that I am your enemy for what I have done...I feel sorry for what I have done and humbly ask your forgiveness...I am willing to make all the restitution you shall require. If I can stay in the church as a member - I will try to make all the satisfaction possible. Do not cast me off for what I have done but strive to save me in the church as a member. I do repent of what I have done to you and ask your forgiveness. I consider the transgression of the other evening of no small magnitude, but it is done and I cannot help it now. I know brother Joseph you are always wiling to forgive..."

On Friday, Joseph answered William's letter. He explained the good feelings he felt when he first attended William’s debating school, but that he subsequently questioned the value of debating sacred doctrines. He then recounted his recollection of the events of that evening. He recalled the love that existed in their family, the tenderness of their aging parents and siblings, the care that they had extended to each other. Speaking plainly, he admonished William for his actions, for the violence he hadimposed on Joseph, and for asking to be released from his calling as an Apostle. He then explained,

"Grant me the privilege of saying then, that however hasty or harsh, I may have spoken at any time to you, it has been done for the express purpose of endeavoring to warn, exhort, admonish, and rescue you from falling into difficulties and sorrows which I foresaw you plunging into, by giving way to that wicked spirit which you call your passions, which you should curb and break down and put under you feet, which if you do not, you never can be saved, in my view, in the kingdom of God....I desire brother William that you will humble yourself. I freely forgive you.

"And you know my unshaken and unchangeable position. I know in whom I trust. I stand upon the rock.... you know that it is my duty to admonish you when you do wrong. This liberty I shall always take, and you shall have the same privilege. I take the privilege to admonish you because of my birthright, and I grand you the privilege because it is my duty to be humble and to receive rebuke and instruction from a brother or a friend. ...

"And now may God have mercy upon my father's house. May God take away enmity from between me and thee; and may all blessing be restored in the past be forgotten forever. May humble repentance bring us both to thee [O God] and to thy power and protection, and a crown, to enjoy the society of father, mother, Alvin, Hyrum, Sophronia, Samuel, Catharine, Carlos, Lucy, the Saints and all the sanctified in peace forever..."

Despite the exchange of letters, the problem continued to fester over the next two weeks. Joseph frequently reflected on what had happened and prayed that his brother would not be cast off, but would magnify his apostleship. Sadly, the bad feelings within the family began to spread out into the church community. Divisions began among the Twelve and the Seventy. Family members became depressed and gloomy. Joseph said it was the adversary trying to prevent the Saints from receiving their endowments in the temple. Bickering and jealousy arose among the elders. He wrote, "So the leaven of iniquity foments and spreads among the members of the Church." But Joseph determined to do everything he could to settle the family difficulties and pull the Church out of this cloud of darkness.

Friday, January 1, 1836 - the New Year. Joseph took steps to start the year aright. William, Hyrum, Uncle John Smith, Father Smith, and Martin Harris came to his house. Father Smith prayed and made an emotional appeal that the family be restored to peace and harmony. He expressed his feelings about the wounds suffered by the family. William made a humble confession and asked everyone for forgiveness. Joseph asked William's forgiveness. They promised each other "in the sight of God and the holy angels and the brethren" to forgive, to build each other up in righteousness, to reconcile disagreements in meekness, and to promote the family's happiness and the well-being of al. Emma and Lucy were then called in and they repeated their covenants to them. Tears flowed freely. Joseph closed the family meeting with prayer. "It was truly a jubilee and time of rejoicing."

That Sunday, after meeting with the Saints, Joseph confirmed a number of persons who had been baptized. William confessed to the church and was cordially received back into fellowship. They partook of the sacrament. That evening, William preached a wonderful sermon.

Joseph wrote, "This day has been a day of rejoicing to me. The cloud that has been hanging over us has burst with blessings on our heads, and Satan has been foiled in his attempts to destroy me and the church, by causing jealousies to arise in the hearts of some of the brethren, and I thank my heavenly father for the union and harmony which now prevails in the Church."

Indeed, over the next few weeks much progress was made in the Church. A Hebrew school was organized with Joshua Seixas hired as their instructor. More men were added to the priesthood quorums. Plans were made for a Solemn Assembly, which was held on Wednesday, January 13.

Dean Jessee, The Papers of Joseph Smith, Volume 2. Journal, 1832-1842. Deseret Book. 1992, pp. 86-127.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/719 ... mily-feud/
_grindael
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Re: Story About Joseph & William Smith On MD&D (grindael Inp

Post by _grindael »

If anyone is going to write up the story of William Smith in the Kirtland period, well, there's a lot that happened before the altercation over the Debating School. So I dug up a bit from the Historical Record:

29 October, 1835 ... Elder [John F.] Boynton observed that long debates were had. I replyed that it was generally the case, that to[o] much, altercation was generally indulged in, on both sides and their debates protracted to an unprofitable length; we were seated called to sup[p]er, after being seated around the table Bishop Whitney observed to Bishop Partrige that <​the​> thought had just occured to his mind that perhaps in about one yea[r] from this time they might be seated together around a table in on the land of Zion [p. 11]
Sister Emma <​my wife​> observed that she hoped it might be the case that not only they but the rest of the of the company present might be seated around her table in the land of promise; the same sentiment was reciprocated, from the company round the table and my heart responded Amen God grant it, I ask in the name of Jesus Christ, after sup[p]er I went to the high council in company with my wife and some others that belong to my house hold I was solicited to take a seat with the presidency and preside in a case of Sister Eliots [Mary Cahoon Elliott] I did so my Mother was called as testimony and began to relate circumstances that had been brought before the church and settled I objected against such testimony the complainant Br. William Smith arose and accused me of invalidating or doubting my Mothers testimony which I had not done nor did I desire to do I told him he was out of place & asked him to set down he refused I repeated my request he become enraged I finally ordered him to set down he said he would not unless I knocked him down I was agitated in my feeling at on the account of his stubournness and was about to call leave the house, but my Father requsted me not to <​do so​> I complyed the house was brought to order after much debate upon the subject and we proceded to buisness & br. Eliot & his wife were both cleared from the charges prefered against them


Notice that Joseph is really against the idea of a Debating School or Club, he really didn't like the idea of debating about "sacred things" he wanted "sacred things handled very sacredly".
30 October 1835 • Friday
Friday 30th at home Mr. Fransis Porter called from Jefferson Co. New York a member of the Methodist Church, called to make some inquiry about lands in this place whether there is any farmes for sale that are valuable and whether [p. 12] a member of our church could move into this vicinity and purchase lands and enjoy his own possessions & property with out making it common Stock, he had been requested to do so by some brethren who live in the town of Leray Jeff [Le Ray, Jefferson] Co N.Y I replyed that he <​I​> had a valuable farm joining the Temple Lot that he <​I​> would sell & that there is other lands for sale in this place and that we have no commonstock business among us, that every man enjoys his own property, or can if he is disposed, consecrate liberally or illiberally to the support of the poor & needy, or the building up of Zion, he also enquired how many members there are in this church I told him that there is about five or six hundred who commune at our chapel and perhaps a thousand in this vicinity:— at evening I was presented with a letter from Br. Walmart Smith the purport of which is that he is censured by the brethren on the account of what took place at the council last night and wishes to have the matter settled to the understanding of all, that he may not be censured unjustly, concidering that his cause was a just one, and that he had been materially injured; I replied that I thought we parted with the best of feelings, that I am not to blame on the account of the dissatisfaction of others, I invited him to call and talk with me, and that I would give <​talk with​> him in the spirit of meekness and give him all the satisfaction I could.— this reply was by letter copy retained [I can find no copy of the letter that Smith refers to by William Smith]

31 October 1835 • Saturday
Saturday 31st in the morning br. Hyram [Hyrum] Smith came in and said he had been much troubled all night and had not slept any [p. 13] that something was wrong while talking br. Walmart. Smith came in according to my requst last night br. Hyram observed that he must go to the Store I invited him to stay he said he would go and do his business & return he did so while he was gone br. William introduced the subject of our difficulty at the council, I told him I did not want to converse upon the subject untill Hyrum returned, he soon came in I then proposed to relate the occurrences of the council before named and wherein I had been out of the way I would confess it and ask his forgivness, and then he should relate his story and make confession wherein he had done wrong he said he had not done wrong and then leave it to br. Hyrum Smith & br. Parish [Warren Parrish] to decide the matter between us and I would agree to the decission & be satisfyed there with; he observed that he had not done wrong, and that I was always determined to carry my points whether right or wrong and therefore he would not stand an equal chance with me; this was an insult, but I did not reply to him in a harsh manner knowing his inflamatory disposition, but tryed to reason with him and show him the propriety of a complyance with my request, I finally succeeded with the assistance of br. Hyrum in obtaining his assent to the proposition that I had made. I then related my story and wherein I had been wrong I confessed it and asked his forgivness after I got through he made his statements justifying himself throughout in transgressing the order of the council & treating the authority of the Presidency with contempt; after he had got through br. Hyrum began to make [p. 14] some remarks, in the spirit of meekness, he [William Smith] became enraged, I joined my brother in trying to calm his stormy feelings, but to no purpose he insisted that we intended to add abuse to injury, his passion increased, he arose abruptly and declared that he wanted no more to do with them us or the church and said we might take his licence for he would have nothing to do with us, he rushed out at the door we tryed to prevail on him to stop, but all to no purpose, he went away in a passion, and soon sent his licence to me, he went home and spread the levavin [leaven] of iniquity in among my brethren and especially prejudiced the mind of br. Samuel [Smith] as I soon learned that he was in the streets exclaiming against, me, which no doubt our enemys rejoice at, and where the matter will end I know not, but I pray God to forgive him and th[e]m, and give them humility and repentance, the feelings of my heart I cannot express on this occasion, I can only pray my heavenly Father to open their eyes that they may discover where they stand, that they may extricate themselves from the snare they have fallen into: after dinner I rode out in company with my wife and children, br. carloss [ Don Carlos Smith] & some others, we went to visit br. [Shadrach] Roundy & family who live near Willoughby, we had an interesting visit at br. Roundy as soon as I returned I was called upon to baptise Samuel Whitney & his Wife and Daughter after baptism we returned to their house and offered our thanks, in prayer I obtained a testimony that Br. William would return and to the church and repair the wrong he had done [p. 15]

3 November 1835 • Tuesday
Thus came Tuesday 3d. Thus came the word of the Lord unto me saying concerning the, Twelve <​saying​>
behold they are under condemnation, because they have not been sufficiently humble in my sight, and in consequence of their covetous desires, in that they have not dealt equally with each other in the division of the moneys which came into their hands, nevertheless some of them, dealt equally therefore they shall be rewarded, but Verily I say unto you they must all humble themselves before Me, before they will be accounted worthy to receive an endowment to go forth in my name unto all nations, as for my Servant William [Smith] let the Eleven humble themselves in prayer and in faith [p. 17] and wait on me in patience and my servant William shall return, and I will yet make him a polished shaft in my quiver, in bringing down the wickedness and abominations of men and their shall be none mightier than he in his day and generation, nevertheless if he repent not spedily he shall be brought low and shall be chastened sorely for all his iniquities he has commited against me, nevertheless the sin which he hath sined against me is not even now more grevious than the sin with which my servant David W. Patten and my servant Orson Hyde and my servant Walmart E. McLellen [McLellin] have sinded against me, and the residue are not sufficiently humble before me, behold the parable which I spake concerning a man having twelve Sons, for what man amon[g] you having twelve Sons and is no respecter to them and they serve him obediantly and he saith unto the one be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here, and to the other be thou clothed in rages [rags] and sit thou there, and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just, ye will answer and say no man, and ye answer truly, therefore Verily thus saith the Lord your God I appointed these twelve that they should be equal in their ministry and in their portion and in their evangelical rights, wherefore they have sined a verry grevious sin, in asmuch as they have made themselves unequal and have not hearkned unto my voice therfor let them repent speedily and prepare their hearts for the solem assembly [p. 18] and for the great day which is to come Verely thus saith the Lord Amen.

There is nothing in the historical record that I can find to show how things got resolved with William and his church membership (at this time) . But he obviously returned to the church...
18 November 1835 • Wednesday
Thursday <​Wednesday​> 18th at home in the fore noon, untill about 11, oclock. I then went to Preserved Harris’s, to preach his fathers funeral Sermon, by the request of the family I preached on the subject of the resurection, the congregation were verry attentive My wife my mother and my scribe went with me to the funeral, we rode in a waggon, had a pleasant ride, the weather was pleasant, when we went. but cloudy and cool when we returned [p. 45]
at evening Bishop [Newel K.] Whitney his wife Father and Mother, and wife Sister in law, came in and invited me and my wife to go with them & visit Father Smith & family my wife was unwell and could not go; however I and my Scribe went, when we got there, we found that some of the young Elders, were about engaging in a debate, upon the subject of miracles, the question was this; was or was it not the design of Christ to establish his gospel by miracles,
After an interesting debate of three hours or more, during which time much talent was displayed, it was decided by the presidents of the debate in the negative; which was a righteous descision I discovered in this debate, much warmth displayed, to[o] much zeal for mastery, to[o] much of that enthusiasm that characterises a lawyer at the bar, who is determined to defend his cause right or wrong. I therefore availed myself of this favorable opportunity, to drop a few words upon this subject by way of advise, that they might improve their minds and cultivate their powers of intellect in a proper manner, that they might not incur the displeasure of heaven
, that they should handle sacred things verry sacredly, and with a due deference to the opinions of others and with an eye single to the glory of God [p. 46]


[I'm just throwing this one in, because it's so dang interesting]

2 December 1835 • Wednesday
Wednesday. 2ond a fine morning I made preparation, to ride to Painsvill [Painesville], with my wife and children, family, also my Scribe, we had our sleigh and horses, prepared and set out, when we arived were passing through Mentor Street, we overtook a team with two men on the sleigh. I politely asked them to let me pass, they granted my request, and as we passed them, they bawled out, do you get any revelation lately, with an adition of blackguard that I did not understand, this is a fair sample of the character of Mentor Street inhabitants, who are ready to abuse and scandalize, men who never laid a straw in their way, and infact those whos faces they never saw, and cannot, bring an acusation, against, either [p. 53] of a temporal or spirtual nature; except our firm belief in the fulness of the gospel and I was led to marvle that God at the long suffering and condescention of our heavenly Father, in permitting, these ungodly wretches, to possess, this goodly land, which is the indeed as beautifully situated, and its soil as fertile, as any in this region of country, and its inhabitance, as wealthy even blessed, above measure, in temporal things, and fain, would God bless, them with, with spiritual blessings, even eternal life, were it not for their evil hearts of unbelief, and we are led to cry in our hearts mingle our prayers with those saints that have suffered the like treatment before us, whose souls are under the altar crying to the Lord for vengance upon those that dwell upon the earth and we rejoice that the time is at hand when, the wicked who will not repent will be swept <​from the earth​> with the besom of destruction and the earth become an inheritance for the poor and the meek.—

[Did Smith take himself that seriously that he allowed that little bit of heckling as their sleighs passed each other bother him that much? I guess so. And remember, Smith is claiming that he didn't understand what they were yelling at him except for "get any revelations lately?"]
12 December 1835 • Saturday
Friday Saturday morning 11th <​12th​> at home, spent the fore noon in reading, at about 12 oclock a number of young persons called to see the records Egyptian records I requested my Scribe to exibit them, he did so, one of the young ladies, who had been examining them, was asked if they had the appearance of Antiquity, she observed with an air of contempt that they did not, on hearing this I was surprised at the ignorance she displayed, and I observed to her that she was an anomaly in creation for all the wise and learned that had ever examined them, without hesitation pronounced them antient, I further remarked that, it was downright wickedness ignorance bigotry and superstition that caused her to make the remark, and that I would put it on record, and I have done so because it is a fair sample of the prevailing spirit of the times [p. 63] showing that the victims of priestcraft and superstition, would not believe though one should rise from the dead.
At evening attended a debate, at Br. Walmart. Smiths, the question proposed to debate upon was, as follows.— was it necessary for God to reveal himself to man, in order for their happiness,— I was on the affirmative and the last One to speak on that side of the question,— but while listning, with interest to the, ingenuity displayed, on both sides of the qu[e]stion, I was called, away to visit, Sister Angeline Works, who was suposed to be dangerously sick, Elder [John ] Corrill & myself went and prayed for and layed hands on her in the name of Jesus Christ, She appeard to be better,— returned home
16 December 1835 • Wednesday
Wednesday morning the 16th the weather is extremely cold, this morning I went to the council room, to lay before the presidency, the letter that I received yesterday from Elder O[rson] Hyde, but when I arived, I found that I had lost said letter, but I laid the substance of it as far as I could recollect before the council,— but they had not time to attend to it on the account of other buisness, accordingly we adjourned untill Monday Evening the 20th Inst.
Returned home Elder McLellen [William E. McLellin] Elder B[righam] Young and Elder J[ared] Carter called and paid me a visit, with which I was much gratified, I exibited and explaind the Egyptian Records to them, and explained many things to them concerning the dealings of God with the ancients and the formation of the planetary System, they seemed much pleased with the interview.
This evening according to adjournment I went to Br. Walmart Smiths, to take part in the debate that was commenced on saturday evening last,— after the debate was concluded, and a desision given in favour of the affirmative of the question, some altercation took place, upon the impropiety of continueing the school fearing that it would not result in good.
Br. Walmart oposed these measures and insisted on having another question proposed, and at length become much enraged particularly at me and used [p. 69] violence upon my person, and also upon Elder J. Carter and some others, for which I am grieved beyond expression, and can only pray God to forgive him inasmuch as he repents of his wickedness, and humbles himself before the Lord.

17 December 1835 • Thursday
Thursday morning 17th at home,— quite unwell,— This morning Elder Orson Hyde called to see me, and presented me with a copy of the letter that he handed me on Tuesday last, which I had lost... [visit from Orson Hyde & Letter he wrote to Joseph] My Father & Mother called this evening to see me upon the subject of the difficulty, that transpired at their house on wednesdy evening between me and my Br. William, they were sorely afflicted in mind on the account of that occurrence, I conversed with them, and showed convinced them that I was not to blame in taking the course I did, but had acted in righteousness, in all thing on that occasion I invited them to come and live with me, they concented to do so as soon as it <​is​> practicable [p. 75]

18 December 1835 • Friday
Friday morning 17th <​18th​> Inst. at home Br. Hyrum Smith, called to see me and read a letter to me that he received from William [Smith], in which he asked, Hyrum <​his​> for <​for​>givness for the abuse he offered to him, at the debate, he tarried, most of the fore noon, and conversed freely with me, upon the subject, of the difficulty, existing between me and Br. William, he said that he was, perfectly satisfied, with the course I had taken, with him, in rebuking, him in his wickedness,— but he is wounded to the verry soul, with the conduct of William, and although he feels the tender feelings of a brother, toward him yet he can but look upon his conduct as an abomination in the sight of God
And I could pray in my heart that all my brethren were like unto my beloved brother Hyrum, who posseses the mildness of a lamb and the integrity of a Job, and in short the meekness and humility of Christ, and I love him with that love that is stronger than death; for I never had occasion to rebuke him, and nor he me which he declared when he left me to day [7 lines blank] [p. 76]


The Letter from William Smith (December 18th, 1835)

18th Inst.
Copy of a letter from Br. William Smith
Br. Joseph— Though I do not know but I have forfeited all right and title to the word brother, in concequence of what I have done, for I concider myself; that I am unworthy to be called one, after coming to myself and concidering upon what I have done I feel as though it was a duty, to make a humble confession to you for what I have done or what took place the other evening,— but leave this part of the subject at present,— I was called to an account by the 12, yesterday for my conduct; or they desired to know my mind or determination and what I was going to do I told them that on reflection upon the many difficulties that I had had with the church and the much disgrace I had brought upon myself in concequence of these things and also that my health would not permit me to go to school to <​make​> any preperations for the endument and that my health was such that I was not able to travel, I told them that it would be better for them to appoint one in the office that would be better able to fill it, and by doing this they would throw me into the hands of the church, and leave me where I was before I was chosen—
Then I would not be in a situation [p. 77] to bring so much disgrace upon the cause, when I fell into temptation, and perhaps by this I might obtain Salvation you know my passions and the danger of falling from so high a station, and thus by withdrawing from the office of the apostleship while their is salvation for me, and remaining a member in the church;
I feel a fraid if I do’New Testament do this it will be worse for me, some other day And again my health is poor and I am not able to travel and it is necessary that the office, should not be idle— And again I say you know my passions and I am a fraid it will be worse for me, by and by do so if the Lord will have mercy on me and let me remain as a member in the church, and then I can travel and preach, when I am able— do not think that I am your enemy for what I have done, perhaps you may say or ask why I have not remembered the good that you have done to me— When I reflect upon the ingury I have done you I must confess that I do not know what I have been doing about— I feel sorry for what I have done and humbly ask your forgiveness— I have not confidence as yet to come and see you for I feel ashamed of what I have done, and as I feel now I feel as thou [p. 78] gh all the confessions that I could make verbally or by writing would not be sufficient to atone for the transgression— be this as it may I am willing to make all the restitution you shall require, If I can stay in the church as a member— I will try to make all the satisfaction possible—
yours with respect
William Smith
do not cast me off for what I have done but strive to save me in the church as a member I do repeat repent of what I have done to you and ask your forgiveness— I concider the transgression the other evening of no small magnitude,— but it is done and I cannot help it now— I know brother Joseph you are always willing to forgive.
But I sometimes think when I reflect upon the many inguries I have done you I feel as though a confession was not hardly sufficient— but have mercy on me this once and I will try to do so no more—
The 12, called a council yesterday and sent over after me and I went over
This council rem[em]ber was called together by themselves and not by me
Walmart. S

William could beat the hell out of Joseph but he was just too weak to travel and do his duty as an Apostle? What Warren Parrish later wrote in the 1834-36 History Book:
16 December 1835 • Wednesday
Wednesday morning 16th. The weathere is extremely cold.— This morning he went to the council room, to lay before the presidency the letter that he received from Eldr. O[rson] Hyde, but when he arived he found that he had lost it said letter, he made search for it in vain, however he related the substance of it to that body; but they had not time to attend to it on account of other business; and accordingly laid it over <​until​> monday evening following.— He returned home. Eldr.s Mc Lellen [William E. McLellin] [Brigham] Young & [Jared] Carter call[ed] to visit him he was much pleased with the interview; he exhibited, & explained the Egytian records to them, and many things concerning the dealings of God, with the ancients especially the system of astronomy as taught by Abraham, which is contained upon these manuscripts; they were much gratified with this inteligence.— This evining he went to his brother Walmart. Smith’s to take part in the debate, that was commenced on last Saturday evening, upon the question before named, viz. was it necessary for God to reveal himself to the world &c. [p. 149] after the debate was concluded, and a descision given in favour of the affirmative, some altercation was had upon the impropriety of continuing the school. He and his brother Hyrum Smith were descidedly of the opinion that it would not result in good. Their brother Walmart. strenuously opposed them and insisted on having another question propounded, [continuing the debate club] asserting that he was in his own house and should insist on continuing the school regardless of consequences, and at length he became much inraged especially at his brother Joseph, and committed violence upon his person, and others who interfered to stay him, in his wicked course. After his passion had abated a little, and his stormy feelings were partialy tranquilized Joseph, returned home, grieved beyond expr[e]ssion, at <​the​> wickedness of his brother, who Cain like had sought to kill him, and had conciderably wounded him, notwithstanding the exertions of his brothren to prevent it; nevertheless he prayed God to forgive him inasmuch as he would heartily repent and humble himself before the Lord. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ical-intro


It seems that Joseph was opposed to the Debate School for some time and was pretty much looking for an excuse to discontinue it, and I'm wondering if he goaded William into the fight, knowing it would end the way it did. From the History Book:

Letter to William Smith • 18 or 19 December 1835
Kirtland Friday Dec 17th <​18th​> 1835
Answer to the foregoing Letter from Br. William Smith  a Copy
Br. William.
having received your letter I now procede to answer it, and shall first procede, to give a brief naration of my feelings and motives, since the night I first came to the knowledge, of your having a debating school, which was at the time I happened, in with, Bishop [Newel K.] Whitney his Father and Mother &c— which was the first that I knew any thing about it, and from that time I took an interest in them, and was delighted with it, and formed a determination, to attend the school for the purpose of obtaining information, and with the idea of imparting the same, through the assistance of the spirit of the Lord, if by any means I should have faith to do so; and with this intent, I went to the school on <​last​> Wedensday night, not with the idea of braking up the school, neither did it enter into my heart, that there was any wrangling or jealousy’s in your heart, against me;
Notwithstanding previous to my leaving home there were feelings of solemnity, rolling across my breast, which were unaccountable to me, and also these feelings continued by spells to depress my feelings <​spirit​> and seemed to manifest that all was not right, even after the debate school commenced, and during the debate, yet I strove to believe that all would work together for good; I was pleased with the power of the arguments, that were aduced, and did [p. 80] not feel to cast any reflections, upon any one that had spoken; but I felt that it was my <​the​> duty of old men that set as presidents to be as grave, at least as young men, and that it was our duty to smile at solid arguments, and sound reasoning, and be impreesed, with solemnity, which should be manifest in our countanance, when folly and that which militates against truth and righteousness, rears its head
Therefore in the spirit of my calling and in view of the authority of the priesthood that has been confered upon me, it would be my duty to reprove whatever I esteemed to be wrong fondly hoping in my heart that all parties, would concider it right, and therefore humble themselves, that satan might not take the advantage of us, and hinder the progress of our School.
Now Br. William I want you should bear with me, notwithstanding my plainness—
I would say to you that my feelings, were grieved at the interuption you made upon Elder McLellen [William E. McLellin], I thought, you should have concidered your relation, with him, in your Apostle ship, and not manifest any division of sentiment, between you, and him, for a surrounding multitude to take the advantage of you:— Therefore by way of entreaty, on the account of the anxiety I had for your influence and wellfare, I said, unto you, do not have any feelings, or something to that amount, why I am thus particular, is that if You, have misconstrued, my feelings, toward you, you may be corrected.— [p. 81]
But to procede— after the school was closed Br. Hyrum [Smith], requested, the privilege, of speaking, you objected, however you said if he would not abuse the school, he might speak, and that you would not allow any man to abuse the school in your house,—
Now you had no reason to suspect that Hyrum, would abuse the school, therefore my feelings were mortifyed, at those unnecessa[r]y observations, I undertook to reason, with you but you manifisted, an inconciderate and stubourn spirit, I then dispared, of benefiting you, on the account of the spirit you manifested, which drew from, me the expression that you was as ugly as the Devil.
Father then commanded silence and I formed a determination, to obey his mandate, and was about to leave the house, with the impression, that You was under the influence of a wicked spirit, you replyed that you, would say what you pleased in your own house, Father replyed, say what you please, but let the rest hold their, toungs, then a reflection, rushed through my mind, of the, anxiety, and care I had <​hav​> had for you and your family, in doing what I did, in finishing your house and providin flour for your family &c and also father had possession in the house, as well, as your self; and when at any time have I transgressed, the commandments of my father? or sold my birthright, that I should not have the privilege of speaking in my fathers house, or in other words in my fathers family, or in your house, [p. 82] (for so we will call it, and so it shall be,) that I should not have the privilege, of reproving a younger brother, therefore I said I will speak, for I built the house, and it is as much mine as yours, or something, to that effect, (I should have said that. I helped finish the house,) I said it merely to show that it could not be, the right spirit, that would rise up for trifling matters, and undertake to put me to silence, I saw that your indignation was kindled against me, and you made towards me, I was not then to be moved, and I thought, to pull off my loose coat, least it should tangle me, and you be left to hurt me, but not with the intention, of hurting You, but you was to[o] soon for me, and having once fallen into the hands of a mob, and now been wounded in my side, and now into the hands of a brother, my side gave way, and after having been rescued, from your grasp, I left your house, with, feelings that were indiscribale, the scenery had changed, and all those expectations, that I had cherished, when going to your house, of brotherly kindness, charity forbearance and natural, affection, that in duty binds us not to make each others offenders for a word. but
But alass! abuse, anger, malice, hatred, and rage <​with a lame side​> with marks, of violence <​heaped​> upon my body me by a brother, were the reflections of my disapointment, and with these I returned home, not able to sit down, or rise up, without help, but through the blessings of God I am now better.— [p. 83]
I have received your letter and purused it with care, I have not entertained a feeling of malice, against you, I am, older than your and have endured, more suffering, have been mar[r]ed by mobs, the labours of my calling, a series of persecution, and inguries, continually heaped upon me, all serve to debilitate, my body, and it may <​be​> that I cannot boast of being stronger, than you, if I could, or could not, would this be an honor, or dishonor to me,— if I could boast like David of slaying a Goliath, who defied the armies of the living God, or like Paul, of contending with Peter face to face, with sound arguments, it might be an honor, But to mangle the flesh or seek revenge upon one who never done you any wrong, can not be a source of sweet reflection, to you, nor to me, neither to an honorable father & mother, brothers, and sisters, and when we reflect, with what care our parents and with what unremiting diligence our parents, have strove to watch over us, and how many hours, of sorrow, and anxiety, they have spent over our cradles and bedsides, in times of sickness, how careful we ought to be of their feelings in their old age, it cannot be a source of sweet reflection to us to say or do any thing that will bring their grey hairs down with sorrow to the grave,
In your letter you asked my forgivness, which I readily grant, but it seems to me, that you still retain an idea, that I have given you reasons to be angry or disaffected with me,
Grant me the privelege of saying then, [p. 84] that however hasty, or harsh, I may have spoken, at any time to you, it has been done for the express purpose of endeavouring, to warn exhort, admonish, and rescue you, from falling into difficulties, and sorrows which I foresaw you plunging into, by giving way to that wicked spirit, which you call your passions, which you should curbe and break down, and put under your feet, which if you do not you, never can be saved, in my view, in the kingdom of God.
God requires the will of his creatures, to be swallowed up in his will.
You desire to remain in the church, but forsake your apostleship, this is a stratigem of the evil one, when he has gained one advantage, your he lays a plan for another, by <​but​> by maintaining your apostleship in rising up, and making one tremendeous effort, you may overcome your passions, and please God and by forsaking your apostleship, is not to be willing, to make that sacrafice that God requires at your hands and is to incur his displeasure, and without pleasing God do not think, that it will be any better for you, when a man falls one step he must regain that step again, or fall another, he has still more to gain, or eventually all is lost.
I desire brother William that you will humble yourself, I freely forgive you and you know, my unshaken and unshaken unchangable disposition I think know in whom I trust, I stand upon [p. 85] the rock, the floods cannot, no they shall not overthrow me, you know the doctrine I teach is true, and you know that God has blessed me, I brought salvation to my fathers house, as an instrument in the hand of God, when they were in a miserable situation, You know that it is my duty to admonish you when you do wrong this liberty I shall always take, and you shall have the same privelege, I take the privelege, to admonish you because of my birthright, and I grant you the privilege because it is my duty, to be humble and to receive rebuke, and instruction, from a brother or a friend.
As it regards, what course you shall persue hereafter, I do not pretend to say, I leave you in the hands of God and his church. Make your own desision, I will do you good altho you mar me, or slay me, by so doing my garments, shall be clear of your sins, and if at any time you should concider me to be an imposter, for heavens sake leave me in the hands of God, and not think to take vengance on me your self.
Tyrany ursurpation, and to take mens rights ever has and ever shall be banished from my heart.
David sought not to kill Saul, although he was guilty of crimes that never entered my heart.
And now may God have mercy upon my fathers house, may God take [p. 86] away enmity, from betwe[e]n me and thee, and may all blessings be restored, and the past be forgotten forever, may humble repentance bring us both to thee <​O God​> and to thy power and protection, and a crown, to enjoy the society of father mother Alvin Hyrum Sophron[i]a Samuel Catharine [Katharine] Carloss [Don Carlos] Lucy the Saints and all the sanctif[ie]d in peace forever<​, is the prayer of​>
This from Your brother
Joseph Smith Jun
To William Smith

The arrogance of Joseph here, is mind boggling. Just this line alone: "you know that God has blessed me, I brought salvation to my fathers house, as an instrument in the hand of God, when they were in a miserable situation". And that is how Joseph wanted to be known, as the savior of his father's house. Joseph claims that he and Hyrum went to the Debating School to oversee it and the add to it, but they were there to shut it down, that's obvious. And William knew it but Joseph is still insulted that William said Hyrum could speak if he didn't denigrate the school, which he and Joseph ultimately did. They knew it would piss him off. But Joseph couldn't shut up, and claimed that William's house was really his! Joseph doesn't want to fight, but takes off his coat! Everything about this is crazy.
19 December 1835 • Saturday
Saturday morning the 19th. at home wrote the <​above​> letter to Br. Walmart. Smith I have had many solemn feelings this day Concerning my Brothe[r] William and have prayed in my heart to fervently that the Lord will not him <​cast him​> off but <​he​> may return to the God of Jacob and magnify his apostleship and calling may this be his happy lot for the Lord of Glorys Sake Amen

It seems that it really should have been the end for William, but Joseph just couldn't let his brother go down in flames and sealed it with a "revelation". He basically blames the Twelve, and claims that some of them did worse things than his brother did. The stuff with Orson Hyde is interesting, I cut it out but maybe shouldn't have, because he was basically ticked off because there was a store that the Twelve frequented and William got special treatment and the rest of them didn't. Hyde was ticked off about it, but made up with Joseph. William was just a big, fat asshole, even to his brother, who it seems he called a phony prophet. And Joseph, trying to deal with his crazy brother, claims that it was Satan making him act all crazy:
Friday morning Jany. 1st. 1836 this being the beginning of a new year, my heart is filled with gratitude to God, that he has preserved my life and the life <​lives​> of my family while another year has rolled away, we have been, sustained and upheld in the midst of a wicked and perverse generation, and exposed to all, the afflictions temptations and misery that are incident to human life, for which I feel to humble myself in dust and ashes, as it were before the Lord— but notwithstanding, the gratitude that fills my heart on retrospecting the past year, and the multiplyed blessings that have crowned our heads, my heart is pained within me because of the difficulty that in exists in my fathers family, the Devil has made a violent attack on Br. Walmart [Smith] and Br Calvin [Stoddard - he turned on Joseph in June and Joseph assaulted him, possibly causing a brain injury] and the powers of darkness, seeme [to] lower over their minds and not only theirs but cast a gloomy shade over the minds of my my parents and somee of my brothers and sisters, which prevents them from seeing things as they realy are, and the powers of Earth & hell seem combined to overthrow us and the Church by [p. 94] causing a division in the family, and is indeed the adversary is bring[ing] into requisition all his subtlety to prevent the Saints from being endowed, by causing devision among the 12, also among the 70, and bickerings and jealousies among the Elders and official members of the church, and so the leaven of iniquity foments and spreads among the members of the church,
But I am determined that nothing on my part shall be lacking to adjust and amicably dispose of and settle all family difficulties, on this day, that the ensuing year, and years, be they many or few may be spent in righteousneess before God, and I know that the cloud will burst and satans kingdom be laid in ruin, <​ruins​> with all his black designs, and the saints come forth like gold seven times tried in the fire, being made perfect throug[h] sufferings, and temptations, and the blessings of heaven and earth multiplyed upon our heads which may God grant for Christ sake Amen—
Br. William came to my house and Br. Hyrum [Smith], also, Uncle John Smith, we went into a room in company with father and Elder Martin Harris,201 and father, Smith then opened our interview by prayer after which, he expressed his feelings on the ocasion in a verry feeling and pathetic manner even with all the sympathy of a father whose feeling were wounded deeply on the [p. 95] account of the difficulty that was existing in the family, and while he addressed us the spirit of God rested down upon us in mighty power, and our hearts were melted Br. William made an humble confession and asked our my forgiveness for the abuse he had offered me and wherein I had been out of the way I asked his forgivness, and the spirit of confission and forgiveness, was mutual among us all, and we covenanted with each other in the Sight of God and the holy angels and the brethren, to strive from henceforward to build each other up in righteousness, in all things and not listen to evil reports concerning eachother, but like brethren, indeed go to eachother, with our grievances in the spirit of meekness, and be reconciled and thereby promote our own happiness and the happiness of the family and in short the happiness and well being of all.— my wife and Mother, Uncle John & my Scribe was then called in and we repeated the covenant to them that we had entered into, and while gratitude swelled our bosoms, tears flowed from our eys.— I was then requested to close our interview which I did with prayer, and it was truly a jubilee and time of rejoiceing [p. 96]


And so it went:

2 January 1836 • Saturday
Saturday morning 2ond acording to previous arangement, I went to council at 9 oclock,— this council was called, to set in judgment, on a complaint. prefered against Br. William [Smith], by Elder Orson Johnson the council organized and opened by prayer and proceded to buisness, but before entering on the trial Br. William arose and humbly confessed the charges prefered against him and asked the forgivness of the council and the whole congregation a vote was then called to know whether his confession was satisfactory, and whether the brethren would extend the hand of fellowship to him again, with cheerfulness the whole congregation raised thier hands to receive him
Elder Almon Babbit[t] also confessed his the charges which I prefered against him in a previous council, and was received into fellowship, and some other buisness was transacted, in union and fellowship and the best of feelings seemed to prevail among the brethren, and our hearts were made glad on the occasion, and there was joy in heaven, and my soul doth magnify the Lord for his goodness and mercy endureth forever— council adjourned with prayer as us[u]al—


Joseph always protected his brothers, especially William and even in Nauvoo when he was up to his neck in the spiritual wife scandal with his cohort JC Bennett, Joseph covered up what he did and he was never charged with ANYTHING. Joseph was all about protecting his family, his entire family at all costs. Stoddard had lots of problems and he probably died from an assault by Joseph on him which you can read about here. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38241&p=893844
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Madison54
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Re: Story About Joseph & William Smith On MD&D (grindael Inp

Post by _Madison54 »

Wow...thank you grindael for your reply! As always, all you write is so interesting and adds so much more detail and insight.

William Smith is an interesting character from church history and I loved reading all that you posted above.

The thread over on MD&D evolved into a discussion about Samuel Smith and calm of course posted this about how he died:

June 27, 1844, while still living in Plymouth, Samuel learned that his brothers Joseph and Hyrum, who were in Carthage Jail with John Taylor and Willard Richards, were in danger. Samuel headed toward Carthage with a 14-year-old boy driving a wagon. On the way they met a mob, which attacked when they learned Samuel was Joseph Smith’s brother. The boy headed to Carthage with the wagon, and Samuel escaped into the woods “after severe fatigue, and much danger.”26

He made his way home and “acquired a horse noted for its speed.”27 His six-year-old daughter, Mary, remembers this moment: “My father came into the house in much excitement, and said … ‘I think I can break through the mob and get to Carthage’ and immediately he mounted the horse and was gone.”28

As he neared the town, a man and woman escaping in a buggy told him his brothers had been killed. Samuel rode on at great speed. Some of the mob, expecting his return, had hidden in a thicket. They chased Samuel, shooting at him. A bullet passed through the top of his hat, but Samuel, an excellent horseman, outran them.

Samuel was the first Latter-day Saint to arrive at the jail,29 but by then Joseph and Hyrum were already dead. The violence was over, the mob had retreated, and Samuel had a piercing pain in his side.

Samuel helped Willard Richards take the two bodies and the severely wounded John Taylor to a nearby hotel owned by Artois Hamilton. That night Willard wrote a letter to Emma telling her that Joseph and Hyrum were dead. Samuel’s signature appears alongside that of Willard Richards and John Taylor.30

The next day, Samuel, Willard, and Artois took the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum in two wagons to the Mansion House in Nauvoo. Samuel drove the wagon carrying the body of his brother Joseph. A guard of eight men accompanied them.31

After Lucy viewed the bodies, Samuel said, “Mother, I have had a dreadful distress in my side ever since I was chased by the mob.”32

Though Samuel was in pain and Levira was only weeks away from delivering a baby, the family moved into a two-story frame house opposite the Mansion House. Samuel’s health continued to decline. On July 30, just 34 days after Joseph and Hyrum died, Samuel died. His young daughter Mary remembered how “silence gave way to sobs”33 after their father passed away. His cause of death was listed as bilious fever.34


I kind of chuckled when I read this since it was really a thread about William and he's one the ones who accused BY of poisoning his brother, Samuel. Of course, I knew calm wouldn't post his quote about it :lol:
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Re: Story About Joseph & William Smith On MD&D (grindael Inp

Post by _grindael »

There is so many thing wrong with Lucy Smith's account of what Samuel did... sometime I'll have to go into it... I think I wrote something on it... somewhere... have to dig it up... And you know, I had a lot of fun digging into the Debating School, I had known some of the quotes from Joseph's journal, but that even helped me to understand Joseph a bit better. And we can go back all the way to Palmyra and debating clubs... in the light of all the quotes above, think about the implications of this statement by Orsamus Turner...

But Joseph had a little ambition, and some very laudable aspirations; the mother's intellect occasionally shone out in him feebly, especially when he used to help us to solve some portentous questions of moral or political ethics, in our juvenile debating club, which we moved down to the old red school-house on Durfee street, to get rid of the annoyance of critics that used to drop in upon us in the village; amid, subsequently, after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings. http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1851Trn1.htm


I think debating brought back a lot of old memories that Smith really wanted to forget. Just a thought.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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