The "Witness" film contradicts Sic et Non beliefs

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

The "Witness" film contradicts Sic et Non beliefs

Post by _Gadianton »

Have you ever wondered where this idea of doing a film on "the witnesses" comes from? I mean, most people are just going to roll their eyes and say witnesses are generally unreliable and, did they really say they "saw it" as in "really saw it?" If so they were probably lying and just doubling down. Why do "witnesses" make such a great case, or any case at all?

We don't have to answer this directly. In Christian apologetics, one of the most popular arguments today is that the reality of the resurrection is firmly established by eye-witness testimony. "Five hundred people saw Jesus in the air!" Like the "Lunatic, Liar, Lord" argument, the Mo-pologists re-purpose apologetic tools already invented by Christian apologists. One advantage of doing this, is that if a Christian is going to accept the terms of establishing Jesus by eye-witness testimony, then to be consistent, the Book of Mormon witnesses should at least be in the realm of consideration. And then it's going to come down to details: If you reject the eye-witness case for the plates, but accept the eye-witness case for the resurrection, then what, specifically, does the resurrection claim have going for it that the witnesses for the plates don't?

And just what kind of argumentation is it anyway, that establishes that something happened by eye witness testimony? Here's a quote from William Lane Craig, where he debates Bart Erhman on the resurrection.

Craig wrote:First, as in physical science you don’t have to have direct access to explanatory entities in order to infer them. Secondly, the historian’s whole project is dealing with the inaccessible past, where you have to infer things based on present evidence, even though you don’t have direct access. And thirdly, this isn’t a debate about what historians can do professionally. It’s a debate about whether there’s historical evidence for Jesus’ resurrection and the conclusions that we can draw.


Craig is quite right here, in my opinion. Mopologists tend to mangle their discussions on science. Geology, Biology, and Economics and even Cosmology make inferences from objective data without the ability to experimentally verify in a lab. The grasp of science is quite wide, far wider than SeN gives it credit. What Craig is saying here, is that the argument from witnesses is an empirical, scientific argument right at home with all kinds of other science that isn't strictly stuck in a lab. At the beginning of this lecture, he even gets into details of probability theory to bolster his case for the resurrection (get ready for somebody to lift that one for the three witnesses, Lemmie).

In other words, The Interpreter is spending millions of dollars to create a scientific argument for the existence of Gold Plates. They'd never spend the same kind of money on a film that shows how to get a testimony from reading and praying. SeN can go on and on about the Testator, and science being wrong, and how there's ten thousand other ways to get truth aside from science, but none of these other ways hold the interest of the Interpreter staff in the least. At the end of the day, if there's the faintest of hope that science can prove the Book of Mormon true, then the Interpreter staff will put every last cent they have into that chance and not waste their time or money on any of these alleged other ways to get to the truth.

They can talk big about science changing all the time and making mistakes but they've not put their money where there mouth is -- their talk is about faith but their money is on science.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Dr Exiled
_Emeritus
Posts: 3616
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:48 am

Re: The "Witness" film contradicts Sic et Non beliefs

Post by _Dr Exiled »

They have science envy. Science has the upper hand in the debate and they know it won't be unseated by religious magicians any time soon. Their magic won't actually heal the sick or feed the hungry or tell us the future. All they are left with is empty redifinitions and gaslighting. Religious magic is dying and so they grasp at any semblance of scientific proof to bolster their fraudulent claims. The crowd is turning away despite their weak attempts to "prove" their craft.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Physics Guy
_Emeritus
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:38 pm

Re: The "Witness" film contradicts Sic et Non beliefs

Post by _Physics Guy »

There are no witness statements attached to the Koran. As I understand it the Muslim argument for Mohammed as a prophet is just to say, Go read the Koran in Arabic, and see whether it doesn't seem more like the kind of thing God would reveal to a prophet than like the kind of thing a guy would invent.

I haven't tried that experiment because I don't read Arabic. It's like the Moroni challenge, except that it seems to be Muslims' only apologetic argument. They don't need no gold plates.
Post Reply