SeN explores online incel subculture

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_Lemmie
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Lemmie »

The commenter Daniel Wood continues to make very good points:
Daniel Wood > DanielPeterson • 17 hours ago

For many people, it's not that funny or fascinating to have someone drop a vague reference comparing their group to a demonstrably controversial movement that (1) is upset that they're not having sex, (2) sees sex as their right, and (3) blames women for not giving it to them. It's not a popular group.

I don't understand why you're amused/fascinated by people reacting defensively to this. If you could clarify the non-controversial meaning of your comparison, that would be awesome. If it takes another entire article, so be it. You could also just clarify in a comment to me.

Edit: There are many non-controversial ways that I could compare you to an internet troll, and it would be fascinating if you understood my comparison defensively. I hope that's a fair way of making my point.
DanielPeterson Mod > Daniel Wood • 15 hours ago

my wife: "For many people, it's not that funny or fascinating to have someone drop a vague reference comparing their group to a demonstrably controversial movement that (1) is upset that they're not having sex, (2) sees sex as their right, and (3) blames women for not giving it to them. It's not a popular group."

The vagueness of my reference is important. I said absolutely nothing about (1) or (2) or (3) and observed that the incels represent a quite plainly extreme parallel. Ponder that.

And ponder what the parallel was that I had in mind. (Hint: I SAID what it was.)

my wife: "I don't understand why you're amused/fascinated by people reacting defensively to this."

Because I find hostile and unjustified misreadings psychologically interesting -- though, unfortunately, no longer very surprising.

my wife: " If you could clarify the non-controversial meaning of your comparison, that would be awesome. If it takes another entire article, so be it. You could also just clarify in a comment to me."

In a day or two or three, I'll return to the subject.

my wife: "Edit: There are many non-controversial ways that I could compare you to an internet troll, and it would be fascinating if you understood my comparison defensively. I hope that's a fair way of making my point."

It makes your point. But it's a misconceived point.

In a day or two or three, I'll return to the subject.


I find DCP'S attempt at a justification to be useless.
The vagueness of my reference is important. I said absolutely nothing about (1) or (2) or (3) and observed that the incels represent a quite plainly extreme parallel. Ponder that.

First of all, the points 1, 2, and 3 are directly out of the first three sentences of the hyperlink DCP linked to his phrase: "the online incel subculture."

And second, although DCP edited his original comment to note this is "a quite plainly extreme parallel," that argument does not obviate the comparison:

DCP's original statement:
A striking and extreme parallel to this phenomenon, in my judgment, is the online “Incel” subculture.


DCP's later edit:
A striking though plainly quite extreme parallel to this phenomenon, in my judgment, is the online “Incel” subculture.



And last, this:
DCP wrote:The vagueness of my reference is important.

His comparison and hyperlink to the online “Incel” subculture is inappropriate, both pre- and post-edit. His explanation as to how it is not, which will come "in a day or two or three," will be interesting, although he's spent far more time writing posts explaining how he will explain "in a day or two or three" than it would have taken to just explain.
_honorentheos
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _honorentheos »

My takeaway: DCP reads like a typical online incel. His worldview as portrayed online is almost entirely defined by the way he perceives other people who are mistreating him in ways he has no control over, all to excuse being an ass of a human being rather than finding cause for reflection and gaining a bit of self-knowledge.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Maksutov
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Maksutov »

Danny is trying to turn apostasy into pathology. He's run out of everything else. I'm sure he can get some Gentile doctors and scientists to back him up.

No? It's the same old chorus of old lying Mopes? Of course it is. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_honorentheos
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _honorentheos »

Incel culture is one of those right-wing aligned subgroups that creates an identify by contrasting itself with a caricatured understanding of feminism.

Dan is one of those right-wing aligned Mormons who has created an identity by portraying his actions and attitudes as a justified response to his own invented caricatured anti-Mormon critic. The purpose is like that of feminism to the incel: It justifies anything and everything one may do in response.

Now, I do think it's fair to say that there is a mirrored version of this in the response to mopologetics as it were, and it can be construed as justifying anything and everything as a response to Dr. Peterson and his colleagues. But on the whole, I think most people on this board aren't willing to go to such extremes if there are certainly those who are. For every Everybody Wang Chung attempt to troll DCP through dishonest claims, for example, there are those who called him out for lying and wouldn't sanction it as acceptably fighting fire with fire. I think the board would be in a terrible state and have looked far too long into the abyss that is the FARMs crowd's minds were that to become broadly accepted.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Gadianton
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Gadianton »

Incel culture is one of those right-wing aligned subgroups that creates an identify by contrasting itself with a caricatured understanding of feminism.


A great point. The word was new to me and I've done only the quickest survey but I'm pretty sure a follow up would vindicate what you're saying here.

In the abstract I wondered if it an incel could be like a sign-seeker. I'll bet I could work out a theory, create a sock-puppet on MDDB and get some backing for it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

This whole thing about incels reminds me of the TK Smoothie incident where Peterson denied ever hearing about the teaching.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Lemmie
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Lemmie »

Dan Peterson wrote:This is the sort of thing — our current tendency to withdraw into mutually contemptuous, mutually uncommunicating, mutually demonizing “communities” — that I had in mind some weeks ago with my little blog entry “Infected with Doubt” and its reference to the so-called “Incel subculture.” Some responses to that blog entry illustrated my point precisely.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... tempt.html


Interesting. I don't think anyone has ever described the "incel subculture" as "mutual" or "reciprocal" with other communities, even in the sense of being "mutually contemptuous." I think DCP is just trying to walk back his very inappropriate use of the term to describe those who leave his church. His posting on this topic remains reprehensible.
_Gadianton
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Re: SeN explores online incel subculture

Post by _Gadianton »

That quote is ridiculous. and then the little "Some responses represent my point precisely". That's a classic Junior High tactic. "Oh? You're not a "*&&@)&$^"? " Then why are you getting so defensive about it?

And one point of fact: nobody on this board withdrew into Mormondiscussions.com. They were either kicked off of ZLMB or kicked off of FAIR and so this was the result. It was the apologists who fought to separate us from them. It was the apologists who withdrew. Hey, who left Mormondiscussions and withdrew into the insular blog, Sic et Non?

Given certain apologist threats, and known attempts to go to the employers of critics, who wants to post on SeN and reveal their IP or use their real name as everyone there demands?

I've considered posting over there from a proxy server, but while I could easily plug the gaps that Gemli leaves and destroy SeN's apologist crew on the philosophy of science and philosophy of religion with no questions asked, I don't because I'm not welcome there. It's not a safe place for me to go. I only quit posting at FAIR because Juliann can't stand me (Cal and Jan like me), and I would have soon been banned and I would be banned now if I were to use the full strength of my abilities to reason against their faith. I don't care that much if I get banned from FAIR, but somehow I survived quite a long time, by being extra cautious, but as things were playing out, I could read the tea leaves and see that even my powers weren't sufficient to avoid the inevitable. I'd rather leave on my own terms and keep the bragging rights that they never did feel the satisfaction of banning me.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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