Book of Mormon Transliteration

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_mentalgymnast
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _mentalgymnast »

jfro18 wrote:
The problem is that the evidence is pretty clear that God was not involved in the process whatsoever.


Hey jfro18, out of curiosity...and with no ill intent whatsoever...may I ask whether or not you believe in the God of the Bible? A creator God in whose image we are patterned after?

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Themis wrote:You keep suggesting reading words created by some entity working for God could not create a complex operation, which would be false. The best method to create a complex and cohesive narrative would be to give Joseph word for word so he doesn't screw it up. All the witnesses say this is how he did it, and they even give descriptions of him rereading things so they got it right. Why would he need a seer stone in a hat with his face buried in the hat?


Because there was a lot more going on with Joseph's head in the hat than we might fully realize? That's exactly the point of everything I've been saying in this thread. And you're back to, "Hey, this is the way it should have been done to make the most sense to my logical way of thinking".

Regards,
MG
_Themis
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:Because there was a lot more going on with Joseph's head in the hat than we might fully realize? That's exactly the point of everything I've been saying in this thread. And you're back to, "Hey, this is the way it should have been done to make the most sense to my logical way of thinking".

Regards,
MG


Logic thinking proposes rational arguments based on available evidence. You have not done this. Instead you argue no one was in his head so I can make up ideas even if it doesn't fit the evidence we do have. There is a difference between arguing a possibility based on some supporting evidence and just arguing possibilities with no real evidentiary support.
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_jfro18
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _jfro18 »

mentalgymnast wrote:
jfro18 wrote:
The problem is that the evidence is pretty clear that God was not involved in the process whatsoever.


Hey jfro18, out of curiosity...and with no ill intent whatsoever...may I ask whether or not you believe in the God of the Bible? A creator God in whose image we are patterned after?

Regards,
MG


Honestly I'm still working on that... having gone through all of this with the Mormon church it certainly reframes everything else too. I want to believe in a higher power, but I also can see how that was manipulated by Joseph Smith to create something that is used to exploit people's emotions and feelings to dedicate their lives to something that is simply not true.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _mentalgymnast »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Hey jfro18, out of curiosity...and with no ill intent whatsoever...may I ask whether or not you believe in the God of the Bible? A creator God in whose image we are patterned after?


jfro18 wrote:Honestly I'm still working on that... having gone through all of this with the Mormon church it certainly reframes everything else too. I want to believe in a higher power, but I also can see how that was manipulated by Joseph Smith to create something that is used to exploit people's emotions and feelings to dedicate their lives to something that is simply not true.


At a point of time a number of years ago I went through a similar period. If the church isn't true, then where does that put God? How could he let a church with such 'wow!' truth claims...and yet demonstrably false...exist in the world? And the answer, in my mind, was that there wasn't a guy in the sky who gave a flying fig what was going on here on planet earth. Everything, including religions, was created through the imagination of humans.

That lasted for a while.

Then as time went on I gradually came to the realization that belief in God was the number one thing to consider. Everything else was an appendage to that. As I read, thought, and read some more I saw belief in a creator/God as being a reasonable way to go. When I made that choice I found that I looked at Mormonism with new eyes and found that I was able to view things differently...through the eyes of what I consider to be reasonable faith based on some evidence. All the evidence? No. Is it completely rational? No. But there is enough there to move forward in faith...as far as I'm concerned. Others don't agree. I'm OK with that. I can see where they/you might be coming from.

We all respond to different stimuli and/or evidence in different ways. For me, accepting the possibility/probability of there being a creator/God who loves His children and provides a way for everyone to reach their potential happiness, made all the difference as I moved on from a time of questioning the existence of God.

So that's where I'm coming from.

Happy Easter. :smile:

Regards,
MG
_jfro18
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _jfro18 »

mentalgymnast wrote:Then as time went on I gradually came to the realization that belief in God was the number one thing to consider. Everything else was an appendage to that. As I read, thought, and read some more I saw belief in a creator/God as being a reasonable way to go. When I made that choice I found that I looked at Mormonism with new eyes and found that I was able to view things differently...through the eyes of what I consider to be reasonable faith based on some evidence. All the evidence? No. Is it completely rational? No. But there is enough there to move forward in faith...as far as I'm concerned. Others don't agree. I'm OK with that. I can see where they/you might be coming from.


One thing that bothers me about Mormonism is the idea that belief in God has to be tied to belief in Mormonism.

I can believe in God and also see where the evidence is clear that people are exploiting that, such as Joseph Smith in so many ways during his life.

While I understand that you admit that you have to ignore some evidence to make it work for you, what you present here is just not the same church that the church presents itself as... I guess for me that's where I can't reconcile your position.

I get that it works for you, and that's great, but you also have to reinvent the concept to work and I just can't ignore the overwhelming evidence to claim the church is something different.

I suppose that's why I can walk away from Mormonism and still hold out hope there is a God - because this church is nothing more than pseudepigrapha, so once you peel that away there's still a core under it.
_Symmachus
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _Symmachus »

jfro18 wrote:
I suppose that's why I can walk away from Mormonism and still hold out hope there is a God - because this church is nothing more than pseudepigrapha, so once you peel that away there's still a core under it.


The apologetic out is staring them in the face: the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses, and the Book of Abraham are genuine pseudepigrapha.

That's a variation of Harold Bloom's interpretation, but nobody seems willing to take it up and expand it. Obviously, that is largely because doing so would mean dethroning the Primary Version of Mormonism that is really what the apologists are defending (not Mormon scripture or theology or the Church per se). But also I think the first step will present a larger problem, namely showing why anyone should take this pseudepigrapha seriously (a problem that all pseudepigraphic texts have faced in one form or another, which is why the category exists in the first place: why listen to the jazzy saxophone version of Bach when the original is so much better?). No one laboring in the field seems competent, let alone willing, to tend to this difficult problem.

This thread is witness to that problem: MG, has several posters willing to entertain the possibility that there is something of human value in the peculiar parts of the Mormon canon. Instead of offering even a topic to explore, s/he prefers to use the unrecoverable mechanics of translating or composing the Book of Mormon as the footstool for the enthroned Primary Version. No one not already in thrall to that idol cares about it.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Symmachus wrote:...the Primary Version of Mormonism that is really what the apologists are defending...

MG...prefers to use the unrecoverable mechanics of translating or composing the Book of Mormon as the footstool for the enthroned Primary Version. No one not already in thrall to that idol cares about it.


Hi Symmachus,

For clarification, would you lay out explicitly what you consider "that idol" to be made of?

Regards,
MG
_Symmachus
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _Symmachus »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Hi Symmachus,

For clarification, would you lay out explicitly what you consider "that idol" to be made of?

Regards,
MG


I don't think it needs much explication. The Primary Version is the historical Book of Mormon that happened in the western hemisphere, recorded on plates that were translated by Joseph Smith, who led and founded the ecclesiastical organization that is today headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is the only divinely legitimate heir to Smith's church.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_mentalgymnast
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Posts: 8574
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Re: Book of Mormon Transliteration

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Symmachus wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Hi Symmachus,

For clarification, would you lay out explicitly what you consider "that idol" to be made of?

Regards,
MG


I don't think it needs much explication. The Primary Version is the historical Book of Mormon that happened in the western hemisphere, recorded on plates that were translated by Joseph Smith, who led and founded the ecclesiastical organization that is today headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is the only divinely legitimate heir to Smith's church.


OK. I guess I pretty much go along with the Primary Version, the only caveat being that I wouldn't call it "Smith's church". Rather I would call it the restored church of Jesus Christ.

Just a minor...or not so much...quibble.

It's funny, in a way, that after many years of going on the roller coaster ride of a faith journey/crisis that I'd end up back in Primary. But Jesus did say except ye be as little children ye cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Maybe there's actually something to that. :wink:

Regards,
MG
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