Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

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_grindael
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _grindael »

Yes, remaining a believer is such a big issue here. :rolleyes: But trying to defend the false "faithful narrative" has done much damage to the truth. Why should any Mormons cognitive dissonance at finding out the truth be a concern of those propagating it?

Notice Shulem that Mental puts it "if one wants to remain a believer in Hauglids case" because he, himself can't divorce himself from the false "faithful narrative". It means admitting that Smith was a fraud, that he didn't do what he claimed to, translate ancient writings of Abraham. He got everything wrong. EVERYTHING.

The apologists are trying to claim that Smith didn't know about the legends and pseudepigrapha about Abraham, and that he had to get it from somewhere and that was from God... So God is basically revealing to Smith made up stories about Abraham, because there was no ancient "Book of Abraham". They can try to claim all they want that the source of the legends, etc. is Smith's own pseudepigrapha, but we all know it's a lie. Dan has shown us where Smith likely got his made up Book of Abraham from. It wasn't from the papyri like he claimed, and so his truth claims are demonstrably false.

One can stay in the household of the phony, and that is their choice. As long as they know and are truthful about the real history of Mormonism and don't continue to propagate lies as they have been, I don't have a problem with them and neither should anyone else.
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_kairos
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _kairos »

[quote="grindael"]Yes, remaining a believer is such a big issue here. :rolleyes: But trying to defend the false "faithful narrative" has done much damage to the truth. Why should any Mormons cognitive dissonance at finding out the truth be a concern of those propagating it?

Notice Shulem that Mental puts it "if one wants to remain a believer in Hauglids case" because he, himself can't divorce himself from the false "faithful narrative". It means admitting that Smith was a fraud, that he didn't do what he claimed to, translate ancient writings of Abraham. He got everything wrong. EVERYTHING.

The apologists are trying to claim that Smith didn't know about the legends and pseudepigrapha about Abraham, and that he had to get it from somewhere and that was from God... So God is basically revealing to Smith made up stories about Abraham, because there was no ancient "Book of Abraham". They can try to claim all they want that the source of the legends, etc. is Smith's own pseudepigrapha, but we all know it's a lie. Dan has shown us where Smith likely got his made up Book of Abraham from. It wasn't from the papyri like he claimed, and so his truth claims are demonstrably false.


Yes excellent points- Dan has painstakingly checked the "sources" the apologists cite and hits them head on, demolishing their arguments. I think KM in particular wishes that Dan was not so detailed in his pursuit of truth on the Book of Abraham , it's sources and text. Dan is Kerry's worst nightmare imho.
_Shulem
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Shulem »

grindael wrote:Notice Shulem that Mental puts it "if one wants to remain a believer in Hauglids case"


I noticed and it stuck out like a sore thumb! He's making a confession that all is not well with him and he's struggling.

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_Dan Vogel
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Dan Vogel »

I've enjoyed these comments. Thanks.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Mormon Think
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Mormon Think »

Dan Vogel wrote:I've enjoyed these comments. Thanks.


We have all enjoyed your videos Dan. Thanks
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Just watched this episode. Very well done. Interestingly, the part that struck me the most when I read Tvedtnes, Hauglid, and Gee's book was precisely what Vogel said in this video. The vast majority of the sources are soooo late, and have such utterly trivial connections as to be truly useless. This huuuuuuuuge 500+ page tome could easily have been slimmed down to maybe 10 pages, at most. It startled me as I read through it, but put on my apologetic hat anyway back when I was an apologist.

Well done Dan.
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_Shulem
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Shulem »

Hey Dan, I have a question.

Do you plan to do more Book of Abraham videos? If so, when might we expect the next release?

Please, keep them coming.
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Shulem wrote:Hey Dan, I have a question.

Do you plan to do more Book of Abraham videos? If so, when might we expect the next release?

Please, keep them coming.


I think I’m done on this topic for a while. I don’t like telegraphing my moves in case I change my mind. I have other topics I think will have more impact. I got a few ideas on the Book of Mormon during my interviews with John Dehlin.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Shulem
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Shulem »

Dan Vogel wrote:
Shulem wrote:Hey Dan, I have a question.

Do you plan to do more Book of Abraham videos? If so, when might we expect the next release?

Please, keep them coming.


I think I’m done on this topic for a while. I don’t like telegraphing my moves in case I change my mind. I have other topics I think will have more impact. I got a few ideas on the Book of Mormon during my interviews with John Dehlin.


Ok, that's sounds reasonable and well enough. You've done a bang up job on the Book of Abraham and bringing to light a lot of history which isn't so well known among church members.

Right now, I'm over on Mormon Think, reading the section on Polygamy. The church back then is nothing like the church today. I can only imagine if Brigham Young and John Taylor were to ever meet Nelson and Oaks there would be a confrontation and a lot of finger pointing.

Again, thank you so much for your contributions.
_Dan Vogel
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Re: Book of Abraham & Nineteenth Century Sources

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Ok, that's sounds reasonable and well enough. You've done a bang up job on the Book of Abraham and bringing to light a lot of history which isn't so well known among church members.

Right now, I'm over on Mormon Think, reading the section on Polygamy. The church back then is nothing like the church today. I can only imagine if Brigham Young and John Taylor were to ever meet Nelson and Oaks there would be a confrontation and a lot of finger pointing.

Again, thank you so much for your contributions.


Thanks.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
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