Fudging Numbers

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_Shulem
_Emeritus
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Shulem »

Whatever and wherever the case may be it's always the intention of the church to make things look good with a positive spin. The image and public perception of the church and protecting the so-called good name of the church is more important than the souls that belong to the church.

The church has a long history of testifying that growth is a sign that the restoration is true and that prophecy is being fulfilled. Whenever the numbers are up it means the work is going forward. It means the kingdom of God on earth is GROWING and anything that indicates the reverse is a nightmare scenario which is enough to scare any Mormon.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Shulem wrote:Whatever and wherever the case may be it's always the intention of the church to make things look good with a positive spin. The image and public perception of the church and protecting the so-called good name of the church is more important than the souls that belong to the church.

The church has a long history of testifying that growth is a sign that the restoration is true and that prophecy is being fulfilled. Whenever the numbers are up it means the work is going forward. It means the kingdom of God on earth is GROWING and anything that indicates the reverse is a nightmare scenario which is enough to scare any Mormon.


I think we are seeing a bit of a change here in approach with Nelson. No longer are they announcing the membership numbers (for obvious reasons) and now they are emphasizing (or at least Nelson did in conference) that the end of time is near and to be prepared.

Obviously from a faithful perspective, if growth is no longer happening it must mean we are near the end of times.
I have a bridge to sell to those that buy into this.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Shulem
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Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Shulem »

Fence Sitter wrote:I think we are seeing a bit of a change here in approach with Nelson. No longer are they announcing the membership numbers (for obvious reasons) and now they are emphasizing (or at least Nelson did in conference) that the end of time is near and to be prepared.

Obviously from a faithful perspective, if growth is no longer happening it must mean we are near the end of times.
I have a bridge to sell to those that buy into this.


The church has been talking about the end being near since Joseph Smith started preaching and recording revelations in the Doctrine & Covenants. The church has experienced many generations and has evolved and changed with the times. Certainly, President NelSatan knows his time on earth is short and he has nothing to lose by reminding the members that the second coming of Jesus Christ is closer than it was when the church was first organized. Thus we have the perpetual latter days that keep on going as if they will never end and they never will because Jesus Christ is not coming.

The members of the church need to get comfortable with the idea that Christ is not coming back during their lifetime. Those members who actually think or believe that Christ will return during their life are setting themselves up for disappointment. They are going to die without ever seeing the second coming just as every single dead Latter-day Saint has died leaving the prophecy unfulfilled.

It's going to get harder and harder for the 15 to keep the charade up. The risks of scandals and schisms in the church increase as time goes on. The idea that members will look upon the 15 as acting-prophets who don't prophesy will only increase as time goes on. The 15 are not going to be able to keep the act up before something major happens to challenge their power and authority -- hence they will be exposed for being men with no special powers.
_tombrown
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _tombrown »

While I’m not the friend who told Consiglieri about these changes, I am grateful to count him as a friend.

Having spent the better part of 18 months personally and directly involved in the hundreds of hours of discussions and work that resulted in the changes Consiglieri cites (6 wards + branch changed to 9 wards + branch), I can say with 100% certainty that image, PR, increasing unit numbers, or other suggested reasons have absolutely zero to with what changed in our stake.

The sole driver for these changes is the welfare of individuals and families involved. I’m in this to help people any way I can, and strongly believe that these changes will allow us to more effectively serve our neighbors and community members.

I seem to recall something said once about loving your neighbor. Not necessarily a bad thing. :wink:
_Shulem
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Shulem »

tombrown wrote:While I’m not the friend who told Consiglieri about these changes, I am grateful to count him as a friend.

Having spent the better part of 18 months personally and directly involved in the hundreds of hours of discussions and work that resulted in the changes Consiglieri cites (6 wards + branch changed to 9 wards + branch), I can say with 100% certainty that image, PR, increasing unit numbers, or other suggested reasons have absolutely zero to with what changed in our stake.

The sole driver for these changes is the welfare of individuals and families involved. I’m in this to help people any way I can, and strongly believe that these changes will allow us to more effectively serve our neighbors and community members.

I seem to recall something said once about loving your neighbor. Not necessarily a bad thing. :wink:


This sounds good on the surface and I have no reason to discredit your report or sincere desire to tell us the real deal. But, without an appreciable increase in members to justify the increase in units it seems to me that increasing the number of units requires more leaders to staff them which may be a burden on members who have to fill those callings.
_Servant
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Servant »

Shulem wrote:Is there anything fun and exciting about being a Mormon? How hardly. It's a miserable organization to belong to. It's drudgery. You go to church and perform callings that perhaps you really don't enjoy or want to do. Responsibility is mandated upon tired souls who really just need an honest to goodness break after a long week of hard work. But no. Scampering about on Sunday trying to fulfill all the responsibility is enough to make anyone want to take a long or permanent vacation from Mormonism. Then trying to pay the Mormon tax (tithing) is nothing but a source of stress as budget and family needs suffer. What a mess.

Then to top it all off you find out that the bishop has been asking sexually explicit questions to your 12 year old daughter in order to prepare her to go to the temple. The kids really don't want to go to church and your spouse has had enough of all the control and pressure the church puts on personal life and family.

It's time to call it quits. Throw in the towel. Give yourself a pay raise and stop paying tithing. Enjoy Sundays the way they were meant to be enjoyed. Relax and live life to the fullest knowing you're doing what's best for yourself and family.

:smile:


Or stop being a slave to an organization and come to the Biblical Christ who said His yoke is easy, and burden light.
_Servant
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Servant »

Shulem wrote:
tombrown wrote:While I’m not the friend who told Consiglieri about these changes, I am grateful to count him as a friend.

Having spent the better part of 18 months personally and directly involved in the hundreds of hours of discussions and work that resulted in the changes Consiglieri cites (6 wards + branch changed to 9 wards + branch), I can say with 100% certainty that image, PR, increasing unit numbers, or other suggested reasons have absolutely zero to with what changed in our stake.

The sole driver for these changes is the welfare of individuals and families involved. I’m in this to help people any way I can, and strongly believe that these changes will allow us to more effectively serve our neighbors and community members.

I seem to recall something said once about loving your neighbor. Not necessarily a bad thing. :wink:


This sounds good on the surface and I have no reason to discredit your report or sincere desire to tell us the real deal. But, without an appreciable increase in members to justify the increase in units it seems to me that increasing the number of units requires more leaders to staff them which may be a burden on members who have to fill those callings.


Multiply that tactic by, say, a hundred and you have 300 new wards in one geographical area with no increase in numbers - yet it looks really good on paper.
_Shulem
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _Shulem »

Servant wrote:Or stop being a slave to an organization and come to the Biblical Christ who said His yoke is easy, and burden light.


The Biblical Christ grosses me out. I want nothing to do with the Christian cult. The god of the Bible is an abomination -- drinking blood and eating human flesh.

Mormon Discussions Link:

You don't need Jesus

You are in a cult, Servant. You are deceived and are causing others to be deceived too. Get out of the cult while you still can. Do not die in Jesus. You'll have wasted your life turning it over to an imaginary being rather than turning to the strength that is within your own divine self.

It's time for you to grow up. It's time for you to let go of your Jesus dolly, put down your childish blanket, and embrace yourself and who you really are. Grow up.
_cwald
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _cwald »

Servant wrote:
Or stop being a slave to an organization and come to the Biblical Christ who said His yoke is easy, and burden light.


Right. One cult is just as good as another.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_cwald
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Re: Fudging Numbers

Post by _cwald »

Shulem wrote:
You are in a cult, Servant. You are deceived and are causing others to be deceived too. Get out of the cult while you still can. Do not die in Jesus. You'll have wasted your life turning it over to an imaginary being rather than turning to the strength that is within your own divine self.

It's time for you to grow up. It's time for you to let go of your Jesus dolly, put down your childish blanket, and embrace yourself and who you really are. Grow up.


Ah. You posted this while I was writing my last response. Interesting how some folks can't look at their own religion with the same skeptical view they do others. You and I, Shulem were guilty of this for a long time. It's actually kind of cute to see Servant making the same kind of silly claims and testimony bearing that Mormons are taught to do in our their cult.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
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