Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. II

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_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Maksutov wrote:So "specialized sub-community" is a nicer way of saying "occult subculture based on irreligious magical practices"? :lol:

It's pretty clear that Joseph was practicing dog sacrifice and what would clearly be labeled as Satanism if it were practiced today. I wonder why you never hear about any of this stuff in General Conference? It was clearly part of Joseph Smith's belief system. Isn't accurate history about Joseph supposed to be faith promoting?

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Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Servant »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Fascinating research, Grindael!

I love this part:

Joel K. Noble, the Colesville justice before whom Smith appeared in July 1830, said that “Jo. and others were digging for a chest of money in [the] night [but] could not obtain it. They procured one thing and another, together with [a] black dog. The dog was offered as a sacrifice, [blo]od sprinkled, prayer made at the time. [But] (no money obtained). The above sworn to on trial.” (pg. 89)

I remember reading a few years back about Joseph sacrificing dogs on the MAD Board. The comments were hilarious, especially from Russel McGregor (kiwi57):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/665 ... eph-smith/

It wasn't a dog, it was a black sheep, and Joe slit its throat and led it around the area where the spirits were supposedly protecting some treasure - appeasing them with the animal's blood. Of course, he never was able to get the treasure - he used some excuse or other. And Mormons follow this guy.
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Servant »

grindael wrote:Oh that thread is certainly hilarious. One of them links to a FAIRMORMON page, and I found this,

Brant Gardner notes,

Young Joseph Smith was a member of a specialized sub-community with ties to these very old and very respected practices, though by the early 1800s they were respected only by a marginalized segment of society.

Joseph's family shared folk magic beliefs that were common to the day. Joseph's mother, Lucy, felt it important to note in her history that the family did not let these magical endeavors prevent the family from doing the necessary work to survive:

But let not my reader suppose that, because I shall pursue another topic for a season, that we stopped our labor and went at trying to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing Magic circles or sooth saying to the neglect of all kinds of business. We never during our lives suffered one important interest to swallow up every other obligation. But, whilst we worked with our hands, we endeavored to remember the service of, and the welfare of our souls.

Notice how Gardner calls 17-19th Century superstition a "specialized sub-community" with ties to "very old and very respected practices". And what other practices were "respected" by the common folk of the middle ages? What he's doing here is ridiculous. And of course by Smith's time it was respected by a "marginalized" section of society! Why? Because it was all superstitious nonsense that didn't have the trappings of Christianity or other "major" faiths. (Which have their own problems with superstitious nonsense). But the Smith's were dabbling in the occult quite often and as I point out in Pt. II, they lost their farm because the two Jo's were so obsessed with digging for money, so what Lucy writes is totally wrong. They did let that crap get in the way and the apologists know it.

Sort of like calling the Manson family a "specialized sub-community." What garbage.
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Gadianton »

Cruelty to animals is reprehensible. And where is it that Joseph Smith would have got the idea of killing a sheep and getting its blood everywhere in the hopes for some kind of supernatural intervention? Could it be from the Biible? Hmm? As I said, burn the Bible, and there will be fewer of Joseph Smith’s kind in the world, if that’s what you’re worried about.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_grindael
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _grindael »

Well, Part III will be interesting... Here is a PREVIEW... (No links, etc.)

Cole, Walters, Lawrence, & The Chase Stone

Lorenzo Saunders, who grew up with the Smith boys, recalled that,

"Samuel Lawrence was a very intimate acquaintance with Joseph Smith about the time Joseph Smith got married. Living as close as I did at that time there appeared something very mysterious about Mormonism, Though I never could go with the inst[it]ution of the getting up of Mormonism, with what I knew. When this work was first brought forth by Joseph Smith it was not claimed to be a religious thing at all; it was a money making <<thing>> ..."

Saunders also related that,

In 1828, my brother & I was at work in a harvest field. & Hiram Smith was to work with us; & I was going to show how the ideas run on at that time. He was whetting his scythe, & he turns round to my brother; (His name is Orlando but we called him Orlin for to cut it short[)]. he says (H[yrum]. Smith) this is the last year I am going to Swing the Cradle. Why says he? I am going to take up this Mormonism, My brother Said: "Keep about your business as you have begun." his wifes name was Lucy. He said: "I would not take a thousand dollars in that thing & not go into that thing. Joseph Smith my brother will be the richest man in the United states. So they claimed it under a money making system.

Of course, it wasn't called Mormonism in 1828, but in the summer of 1828 Joseph had probably already "translated" the more secular "Book of Lehi". Saunders continues his interview and adds:

It was in the spring [of 1827] I went there to eat sugar. Samuel Lawrence went with me; There was 4 or 5 men making sugar; Their camp was right on the farm; They made several thousands pounds of sugar; You see there was a bounty in the state of New York & they was making a great deal of sugar & they had several boiling places & emploied some men; The men that was there stood down by the fence; There was Peter Ingersoll; Peter's now dead. he died near Pontiac [Michigan]. His land joined the Smith farm on the north. Well he was at work there, & he came there & he was in this group with them, & Samuel Lawrence & there was the old man [Orin] Rockwell; father to Port[er] Rockwell. And one George Proper. ... I supposed there were men to work for them in the sugar bush; I never asked any questions about his help. Samuel Lawrence came along & I went to the house. ...This was in the time of making sugar along in march about the 10th or 15th, & they was in full blast & they used to invite us over to eat sugar. They made sugar every year. ...I know it was before Jo. claimed to have taken the plates from the hill Cummorah. And there was some two or three of us traveled that ground over, & we could not find a hole. There was a great raft of them digging for money. ...Jo. Smith with his peep Stone. [was the leader] I never saw Jo. Smith digging[.] ...I tell you, sir, I am one of them that saw digging there [at "Miner's Hill"] & I will Swear to it. I am one of them that went & tore the door down to the cave. My Father was in possession & he ordered us to break that door down & put the hole up.—

Benjamin Tabor owned the land at that time. The cave was situated on the East side of the hill. It was a farm of a hundred acres; He had it on <<on>> an article & his article run out & he was likely to lose it. I went to Albany & I sold it to Amos Macy. I never Saw young Jo. Smith there by the cave. I will tell you I take the evidence from what the old man said respecting that; The old man said: what: Jo. could see in his peep stone what there was in that cave. & the old man said that Joseph could see.

...Well I will tell you they did dig; Willard Chase & Alvin, the one that died. Willard Chase told me about a place; He said he & alvin Smith went there to dig & there was a chest there; and he said it was so large, & so wide (measuring with a cane) It was an iron chest. And he said they dug down & it only lay a little under the ground. I says how did this shovel become broken up like that? Willard Chase then told me; He says Alvin & I went down & found that chest. Willard Chase claimed his sister Sally had a peep stone. The Lord bless you I have seen her peep stone a hundred times; It was a little bit of a stone & it was green & she would hold it before light. After I left there, it was thirty years ago:--after I left there I can not tell you whether the peep stone was used or not[.] When men will come to me & tell me that men can pick stones out of this Earth [sentence incomplete]. as I told Jo. Smith when he dug one out of a well on Chases Farm in the Shape of a baby's foot. They dug that hole for money. Chase's & Smiths altogether was digging it[.]

I knew all about the stone; Edmund Chase told me all about it, He lives here now, this side of Kalamazoo. He is a man older than I am[.] his name is Edmund Chase[.] I tell you when a man will come <<tell>> me that any one can get a stone, & see knowledge of futurity, I say that he is a liar & the truth is not in him. Steve Mungou lost his pocket book in the road with some $50. in money in it. He went right to Sally Chase to get her to look & see where it was; She went & looked. He was drawing wood out of the woods. She said that pocket book lays right at the side of a log in the woods where you loaded that wood. It lays right at the side of the log well we went & hunted & raked the ground over where she said but could not find it. It past along & finally one night got a paper from Canadagua [Canandaigua, New York], & in it was that a pocket book was found & taken to an old Ontario Bank[.] Took it there & the owner could come & describe his book. And he went & found his pocket book at the bank. I lost [a] drag tooth out of my drag, dragging on my brothers premises there; I says: Sally, tell me where is that drag tooth? She told me "it lays in a log heap." She says I think it lays a little past you will find it

I went & hunted & hunted but could not find it there. I afterwards found it away over in one corner of the field. Well I was going to tell you about Jo. We went to Smiths one day, it was a rainy day; We went into the old mans shop, he was a cooper, and the old man had a shirt on it was the raggedest & dirtyest shirt, and all full of holes. & we got Jo. Smith to look & tell us what color our Girls hair was. well you see by & by some of them says go to Jo. says he Jo. come look into futurity & tell us how it is there? Jo. says I can not do that, I can not look into futurity I can not look into anything that is holy. The old man stood there and says: "I guess he can not look into my shirt then["]...

Speaking of the Smith family I gave them credit for everything except Mormonism; They were good neighbors; They were kind neighbors in sickness; & Hiram Smith in particular when my father died he was at our house all the time. He <<& I>> had a brother died and he was as attentive then. They was always ready to bestow anything.

The old man was always telling yarns, he would go to turkey shoots & get tight & he would pretend to put spells on their guns & would tell them they could not shoot a turkey. At the time the big hole was dug in the hill they was duped by one Walters who pretended to be a conjurer, I heard Willard Chase say that he was duped. They could not be deceived in it after he had gone through with a certain movements & [-] charged them $7. I seen the old man dig there day in and day out; He was close by. I used to go there & see them work. Joseph Smith never did work. They claim there in that book that Jo. Smith was a great worker. he was a lazy dog, I tell you the truth. He never worked for my brother; because I was there all the time. & Jo. Smith never worked there, & Jo. Smith was a fellow that would not form any acquaintance with anybody much & if he did he would get have conflict. Them days people drank liquor everybody drank whiskey & the Smiths with the rest ...

Now I can tell you what he told to our house respecting this revelation that he had in the very commencement before Alvin died, his brother; Sometime before this he claimed that he saw the Angel & that he was notified of these plates & all that & the time would be made known to him but it was not at that time made known to him but he must take his oldest brother & go <<to>> the spot & he could obtain them. Before that time his oldest brother died. Jo. Smith got that revelation a year or two before that. I do not know as I can tell what year Alvin died in[.] It was in the summer before Alvin died he told it at our house. perhaps Mrs. Smith has got the date of Alvins death in her record. After that Alvin died; Then Joseph said that he saw the angel again; The Angel told him he must go & get him a wife & then he could take his wife & go & get the plates. & he pretended he must get a black horse or a mule to go & get the plates[.] We went there & we examined the hill all over where he claimed to got the plates & we could not find a place that was broke & there was no plates on the ground where the hill was not broke. Robinson said he tried many times to find the hole where he took them out, that is on the west hill it was cleared off (Interview with E. L. Kelley, 12 Nov. 1884).

In an interview with William H. Kelley, Saunders gave some other details,

The first time I ever went to Sabbath School I went with young Joe Smith at the old Presbyterian Church...I never saw them digging for money. I saw them dig in a hill, said to be for that purpose; that young Joe could look in his peep stone and see a man sitting in a gold chair. Old Joe said he was king i.e. the man in the chair; a king of [p. 7] one of the tribes who was shut in there in the time of one of their big battles. This digging was a mile from Smiths. Don't know as there was ever anything in the cave. The cave was on our place. This was in 1826. The cave had a door to it. We tore it off and sunk it in a pit of water where they got dirt to cover a cole pit. ... He gave the account [of finding the plates] in my father's house. He said he was in the woods at prayer and the angel touched him on the shoulders and he arose, and the angel told him where the plates were and he could take his oldest Brother with him in a year from that time and go and get them. But his oldest Brother died before the year was out. At the end of the time he went to the place to get the plates the angel asked where his Brother was. I told him he was dead. The angel told him there would be an other appointed. Joseph chose Samuel Lawrence. But he did not go. ... Joseph's wife was a pretty woman; as pretty a woman as I ever saw. When she came to the Smiths she was very much disappointed and used to come to our house and sit down and cry. Said she was deceived and got into a hard place. Joe said in our house to my mother, the angel said he must get married him a wife and take her and go and and get the plates. Sam Lawrence took him over into Pennsylvania and introduced him to Emma Hale. I don't know as Joe had ever been in Pennsylvania before, but him and Sam Lawrence was had been deviling around--no telling where they had gone. Joe told Sam Lawrence that there was a silver mine over in Pennsylvania--told him if he would he might share in it with him; but behold he wanted an introduction to Emma Hale is the way it turned out. Sam Lawrence told me so.After he was married and brought his wife home, the angel told him he must procure a black horse to go and get the plates. He come one night to get my Brothers black horse and went off and said he got the plates. He borrowed the horse.

Lorenzo's younger brother Benjamin (who was sixteen at the time) claimed to have heard"Joe" tell the story about procuring the gold plates:

I heard <Joe> tell my Mother and Sister how he procured the plates. He said he was directed by an angel where it was. He went in the night to get the plates. When he took the plates there was something down near the box that looked some like a toad that rose up into a man which forbid him to take the plates. He found a big pair of spectacles <also with the plates>.

As he went home some one tried to get the plates away from him. He said he knock[ed] the man down and got away. Had two or three skirmishes on the way. I saw his hand all swel[l]ed up and he said it was done in hitting the enemy. (Benjamin Saunders interview (1884), Vogel, Early Mormon Documents 2:137-38).

In reading the accounts by the Saunders one comes away with a far different picture of the Smith family and what was going on in relation to the gold plates story. Take for instance the "holy shirt" incident. It may seem an innocuous story, but Joseph actually reveals something very telling when he claims that he can't look into anything that is "holy". Well, that would seem to exclude the gold plates and everything to do with revelations that Smith claimed to get through that same stone. And if God prepared spectacles to "translate" the record, it seems incongruous that he would have needed Joseph to use a peepstone.

Notice by this time that Smith is claiming that the angel told him where the plates were, that he didn't look in the stone to find them as he had told others previously. The gold plates had now become "holy" and he could not use his peep-stone to look into anything that was "holy". Saunders is baffled, the Smith's were "good neighbors" but they were money-diggers who turned that into what they thought would be a money making religious scheme. And he has some words about young Jo, that he didn't make friends easily and if he did, he would get drunk and get into conflicts. He was lazy and did none of the digging, he was the Peeker who directed others to dig.

Morris claims that Abner Cole only started writing critical things about Joseph Smith after he was confronted about publishing chapters of the forthcoming Book of Mormon, but that isn't accurate. On September 26, 1829, Cole published two items, one after the other:

The Book of Mormon is expected to be ready for delivery in the course of one year -- Great and marvellous things will "come to pass" about those days....

===>Mahomet's Coffin, (supposed to be of Iron,) is said to be suspended in the air. in the centre of the great Mosque at Mecca, through the agency of the load-stone, of which substance the centre arch is composed.

The story of the Coffin of Mohammed is a known hoax, intended to deceive gullible Muslims, but the story contains so many errors that it is doubtful it ever took place. A great and marvelous humbug to be sure... kind of like a gold plate story.

In the same month, Cole published this:

An Extract. -- MEN OF UNDERSTANDING -- "This title distinquished a denomination which appeared in Flanders and Brussels, in the year 1511. They owed their origin to an illiterate man whose name was Egidus Cantor, [Aegidius Cantor, 1411] and to William of Hendenison, [Hildernissen] a Carmelite Monk -- They pretended to be honoured with celestial visions; denied that any could arrive at a perfect knowledge of the Holy Scriptures without the extraordinary succors of a divine illumination, and declared the approach of a new revelation from heaven, more perfect than the Gospel of Christ."

How does this tally with the pretensions of Jo Smith Jr. and his followers -- ha?

A longer description of the sect (most likely Cole's source) appears in Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern by John Lawrence Von Moshiem (1693-1755):

In the year 1411 there were discovered in the Netherlands, and especially at Brussels, a sect which was projected and propagated by Aegidius Cantor, an illiterate man, and William of Hildenissen, a Carmelite, and which was called that of the Men of Understanding. In this sect there were not a few things deservedly reprehensible, which were derived perhaps in great measure from the mystic system. For these men professed to have divine visions, denied that any one can correctly understand the holy Scriptures unless he is divinely illuminated, promised a new divine revelation better and more perfect than the Christian, taught the resurrection had taken place already in the person of Christ, and that another of the bodies of the dead was not to be expected, maintained that the internal man is not defiled by the deeds of the external, and inculcated that hell itself will have an end, and that all, both men and devils, will return to God and attain to eternal felicity. This sect appears to have been a branch of the Free Spirit; for they asserted that a new law of the Holy Spirit and of spiritual liberty was about to be promulgated. Yet there were opinions held by its members which show that they were not entirely void of understanding. They inculcated for example -- I. that Jesus Christ alone had merited eternal life for the human race, neither could men acquire for themselves future bliss by their own deeds; II. that presbyters to whom people confess their iniquities cannot pardon sins, but that only Jesus Christ forgives men their sins; III. that voluntary penances are not necessary to salvation. Yet these and some other tenets, Peter de Alliaco, the biship of Cambray who broke up this sect, pronounced to be heretical, and commanded William of Hildenissen to abjure. (pg. 554)

A month later, Cole published this:

KNIPPERDOLINGS. -- a denomination in the sixteenth century, so called from Bertrand Knipperdoling, who taught that the righteous before the day of Judgment , should have a monarchy on earth and the wicked be destroyed, that men are not justified by their faith in Christ; that there is no original sin; that infants ought not to be baptized, and that immersion is the only mode of baptism; that every one has the authority to preach and administer the sacraments; that men are not obliged to pay respect to magistrates; that all things ought to be in common, and that it is lawful to marry many wives. (The Reflector, Wednesday, October 28, 1829.)

This is doctrine (for the most part) straight out of the Book of Mormon. And isn't it interesting that the Church Joseph would soon found would hold all things in common and later practice polygamy. One of the Smith neighbors, John Stafford recalled that,

Joe used to read Tom Paine's writings a great deal and talk their sentiments. He read the Koran and was a great admirer of Mahomet and his pretended revelations. He defended polygamy, and contended that the Bible taught it, and that it was right. He did this before he left New York for Ohio.” ( Clark Braden Interview of John Stafford, The Cleveland Herald, February 14, 1884)

The group in Münster that Cole is referring to had a prophet, Jan van Leiden, apostles, revelation, and referred to themselves as "Saints of the last days." As part of the Anabaptist movement (the "radical reformation"), the Münster Anabaptists were in the same family tree as the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, etc. Apparently they took girls as plural wives as soon as the girls first menstruated, etc. Van Leiden had about seventeen wives. Knipperdoling was one of the "twelve disciples." According to George D. Smith,

In a study of charismatic succession, Margrit Eichler has traced the Anabaptist leadership in Amsterdam from Hofmann to Mathijs, then to Bockelson after the move to Münster. With each successive claim to power, the leadership became bolder in its published credentials. Hofmann considered himself to be Elijah’s avatar, the first witness to Jesus’ return; Mathijs had viewed himself as the prophet of the last days; then in a more assertive step in the summer of 1534, Bockelson became Jesus Christ himself. ...Bockelson appointed twelve elders—analogous to the twelve tribes of Israel and Christ’s twelve apostles—and designated himself as the divinely appointed king, son of David, who would rule the world until God the Father reclaimed his scepter of authority. Bockelson’s claims suggested that the Second Coming, presumptively his, had already occurred. He told the elders that plural marriage was a patriarchal right, an apologetic that anticipated what Mormons would later call “patriarchal marriage.”
(Smith, George D.. Nauvoo Polygamy "... but we called it celestial marriage" . Signature Books. Kindle Edition & thanks to Ron Priddis).

Two months later, in December, Cole published this bit about "Impostors":

No people in the world have been so often and greviously imposed upon as the infatuated Jews. From the birth of our Saviour down to the last century, almost innumerable Impostors, from time to time, have appeared among them in the characters of temporal Princes and false Messiahs. For the amusement and instruction of our readers, we shall attempt to give some account of them. We shall begin with Sabatai Levi, who in the year 1666 made a great noise and gained an immense number of proselytes.

This false Messiah was born at Aleppo, and imposed upon the Jews for a considerable length of time, but afterwards, with a view of saving his life, turned Mahometan and was at last beheaded.

The year 1666 was a year of great expectation and some wonderful thing was looked for by many. This was a fit time for an impostor to set up, and accordingly lying reports were carried about. It was said that a great multitude had marched from unknown parts to the remote deserts of Arabia, and they were supposed to be the ten tribes of Israel, who had been dispersed for many ages; that a ship had arrived in the north coast of Scotland with sails and cordage of silk; that the mariners spake nothing but Hebrew; that on the sails was this motto: -- “The Twelve Tribes of Israel.” Thus were credulous men possessed at this time....

Again, echos of the Book of Mormon that Cole had access to at the Wayne Sentinel establishment. A week later, this by Cole:

FIFTH MONARCHY MEN were a set of enthusiasts in the time of Cromwell who expected the sudden appearance of Christ to establish a new monarchy or kingdom; in consequence of this illusion some of them aimed at the subversion of all human government; in ancient history we read of four great monarchies, the Assyrian, Persian, Grecian, and the Roman. And these men believing that this new spiritual Kingdom of Christ was to be the fifth, -- came to bear the name by which they are called. Their leader was Thomas Venner, a wine Cooper, who in his little conventicle in Coleman-street (London) warned his admirers with passionate expectations of a fifth universal monarchy, under the personal reign of King Jesus upon earth, and that the saints were to take the Kingdom to themselves....

It is obvious that Abner Cole saw Joseph Smith as a religious impostor. He then began publishing extracts from the Book of Mormon in January, 1830. After his set up about the lost tribes of Israel and new revelations from heaven. What makes what Morris writes untenable is that Cole announced that he was going to publish those extracts from the Book of Mormon on December 9, 1829:

GOLD Bible.

A work bearing this cognomen is now in the Press; as much curiosity has been excited in this section of the country on the subject, and as the work itself will not be ready for delivery for some months to come, -- at the solicitation of many of our readers we have concluded to commence publishing extracts from it on or before the commencement of the second series. (The Reflector, December 9, 1829)

It is kind of humorous to be surprised at something that Cole announced ahead of time. And the story about Cole wanting to fight (literally) with Joseph Smith? Most likely an embellishment by Lucy or Joseph Smith. There is nothing in Cole's history that suggests he picked fist fights with people, but there is plenty of evidence that Joseph Smith did. Here is the account by Lucy Smith:

The bargain which they made with E. B. Grandin entitled to use of the every day except sundayThere was one Esqr Cole who living in the village of Palmira who about this time became destitute of Money property and One suday <afternoon> Hyrum became very uneasy he told Oliver that his peculiar feellings led him to believe that something was <going> wrong at printing Office Oliver asked if he thought there would be any harm in going to the office notwithstanding it was sunday. They debated some [p.471] time at last Hyrum said I shall not stop to consider the matter any longer for I am going you may suit yourself about the matter but I will not suffer such uneasiness any longer with out knowing the cause They were out on a few <in a few minutes> their way to the printing establishment when that they arrived there they found an <individual by the name of Coles> very busy at work printing a paper which seemed to be a <weekly> periodicle<cal> of some description Hyrum*
[* An asterisked note at the foot of the sheet reads: “said How why Mr Coles you seem to be busy at work how comes it that you work Sunday. Mr. Coles. Bec,/s> I cannot have the press during the week and I am obliged to print nights and sundays.”]
took up some of them and discovered that the man was printing the Book of Mormon by picemeal. F in the prospectus he Mr Cole agreed to publish one form of Joe smith’s Gold Bible each week and thereby furnish his subscribers with the whole boo principle portion of the book for a very small <comparitively small> sum his Paper was entitled Dogberry paper Winter Hill and there <here> he had thrown together the <most> disgusting and insignificant stuff that could be conceived of jus in juxtaposition with a cop the form which of the Book of Mormon which he had pilfered. [p.472]
thus Classing the beautiful <unaffected> simplicity of this inspired writing with the lowest and most contemtible doggerel that ever were <was> imposed upon any community whatever
Hyrum was indignant <shocked> at this pervesion of common sense and moral feeling as well as indignant at the unfair and dishonest course he took to get possession of the work
Mr Cole said he what right have <you> to print the Book of Mormon in this way. do you not know that we have secured a copy right—It is none of your business sir said Mr cole I have hired the press and I will print what I please so help yourself Mr Cole replied Hyrum I forbid you printing any more of that book in your paper for that is sacred and you must stop it
<Smith> I don't care a dam for what you say Mr. Smith I’m determined to that damned Gold Bible is going into my paper
Hyrum and Oliver both contended with him a long time to dissuade him from his purpose but finding all they could do nothing with him they returned home and Mr [p.473]cole issued his paper as he had done <several other> numbers before that of the same paper for their clandestinely publishing the Book of Mormon and before we could bring it to them in such order to gratify the curiosity <of the people> the whilst they also were more willing to pay <this> arrant knave for their information than to come in possession of it in a more honorable way and in a manner that would help <enable> the proprietors of the work to discharge the obligations they had entered into and its order to its publication we learned that he <had been> was circulating a prospectus of his paper all through the country beginning about 12 miles distant and had agreed to publish one form of the Gold Bible every week and when we discovered him he had already isued some six or 8 numbers—Hyrum <&> Oliver returned immediately home and after counciling with Mr. smith it was considered necesary that Joseph should be sent for.
accordingly My husband set out as soon as possible for Penn. t/ The day that set on which they were expected Home was one of the most blustering cold and disagreable that I ever experinced But they breasted the storm all day long and when [p.474] they arrived there they were very nearly stiffened with the cold—however they Joseph made himself comfortable as soon as po he could and went the same night to the <printing> office as it was sunday the day in which Mr. Cole published his Dogberry Paper. Joseph saluted him very good naturedly with How do you do Mr Coles you seem hard at work and How do you do Mr. Smith said Cole dry<i>ly—
Joseph then examined his paper and said to Mr. cole that book and the right [p]ublishing it belongs to me, and I forbid you meddling in the least degree Mr. Coles threw of [sic] his coat and rolling up his sleves sleeves came towards my son in a great rage and roaring out at the top of his voice do you want to fight sir do you want to fight—I will publish just as what I’m a mind to and now if you want to fight just come on—
Well now Mr. Cole you had better keep on your coo<oa>t for it’s cold and I am not going to fight nor anything of that sort but you have got to [p.475] stop printing my book sir I assure you for I know my rights and shall maintain them
Sir bawled out Cole if you think you are the best man just take off your coat and try it
Mr Cole said Joseph in a low significant tone there is Law— and you will find that out if you did not know it before but I shall not fight you for that would do no good and there is another way of disposing <of> the affair that will answer my purpose better than to fighting
Mr Cole began to cool off a little and finally concluded to submit to an arbitration withou and stop his proceedings without making further trouble and Joseph returned to Penn. (Lucy's Book)

When one reads Lucy's entire account it is obvious that (according to her) Cole had it in for the Smith's right from the start. Lucy claims that he had thrown together the most disgusting things along with the excerpts, but that is not true (even according to Morris). Lucy claims that Cole called it a "damn gold Bible," and Lucy claims that they were concerned about Cole "getting paid for their information". Actually when Cole published the excerpt on January 13, 1830, he wrote at the top of the page, "(From the "Book of Mormon," erroneously called the "Gold Bible.")

Hyrum's "feeling" that something was wrong was probably seeing a copy of The Palmyra Reflector from December 22, 1829 where Cole announces "Gold Bible" excerpts to be published next week. No supernatural notice here, simply reading Dogberry's Reflector.

Morris' comment that Cole only began publishing critical commentary about Joseph Smith after the incident with the "extracts", is simply untenable. Cole would know that his being able to publish those extracts would be limited, and it is obvious that he was setting things up to expose Joseph Smith as another religious fraud, thus his commentary about other infamous religious figures and his snide comment about the "pretensions of Jo Smith Jr.".

What he knew of Smith's past with money-digging would have played right into those plans of proclaiming him a fraud. It was the Dogberry trump card. But before he began to publish the "Book of Pukei", Cole revisits Mohammad on February 13, 1830:

The doctrine, then, of the Koran is the unity of God, to restore which, Mahomet pretended was the chief end of his mission; it being laid down by him as a fundamental truth that there never was, nor ever can be more than one true orthodox religion: that, though the particular laws or ceremonies are only temporary and subject to alteration, according to the divine direction, yet the substance of it being eternal truth, is not liable to change, but continues immutably the same; and that whenever religion became neglected or corrupted in essentials, God had the goodness to re-inform and re-admonish mankind thereof by several prophets, of whom Moses and Jesus were the most distinguished, till the appearance of Mahomet, who is their seal, and no other to be expected after him. ... There are also a great number of occasional passages in the Alcoran relating only to particular emergencies. For this advantage Mahomet had, by his piecemeal method of receiving and delivering his revelations, that, whenever he happened to be perplexed with any thing, he had a certain resource in some new morsel of revelation. It was an admirable contrivance to bring down the whole Alcoran only to the lowest heaven, not to earth; since, had the whole been published at once, innumerable objections would have been made, which it would have been impossible for him to have solved; but as he received it by parcels, as God saw fit they should be published for the conversion and instruction of the people, he had a sure way to extricate himself with honour from any difficulty which might occur.

And one could ask, why did Cole wait, if he was so bent on getting Jo Smith? I believe that it was because Cole had a plan to expose Smith. He stuck to it and being a well read historian made all kinds of comparisons to others he considered religious frauds.

At this time, Joseph was writing revelations and would soon be setting up his own church. In his second publishing endeavor, the Liberal Advocate, Cole would later write:

On the subject of Religion we have only to say, with a learned divine ‘down east,’ that ‘any religion is better than none.’ We believe, however, that man is a ‘religious animal;’ and in case he should happen to be ignorant, he will be inclined to superstition.

Morris writes that whether or not a person was friendly or hostile to Joseph is not a factor in questioning or accepting their testimony, yet he goes to great trouble to discredit Abner Cole and call his information "suspicious".

"You can't have it now..."

Yet, Joseph's story to Joseph Knight, Sr. is a treasure digging yarn at its core (notice that the first page of Knight's recollection is missing, which likely would have told the readers more about this personage and how Joseph came to be in contact with it:

From thence he [Joseph] went to the hill where he was informed the Record was and found no trouble for it appeard plain as though he was acquainted with the place it was so plain in the vision that he had of the place. He went and found the place and opened it and found a plane Box. He oncovered it and found the Book and took it out and laid [it] Down By his side and thot he would Cover the place over again thinking there might be something else here. But he was told to take the Book and go right away. And after he had Covered the place he turned round to take the Book and it was not there and he was astonished that the Book was gone. He thot he would look in the place again and see if it had not got Back again. He had heard people tell of such things. And he opened the Box and Behold the Book was there. He took hold of it to take it out again and Behold he Could not stur the Book any more then he Could the mountin. He exclaimed "why can't I stur this Book?" And he was answered, "you can't have it now." Joseph says, "when can I have it?" The answer was the 22nt Day of September next if you Bring the right person with you. Joseph says," who is the right Person?" The answer was "your oldest Brother."

But before September Came his oldest Brother Died. Then he was Disapinted and did not [k]now what to do. But when the 22nt Day of September Came he went to the place and the personage appeard and told him he Could not have it now. But the 22nt Day of September nex he mite have the Book if he Brot with him the right person. Joseph says, "who is the right Person?" The answer was you will know. Then he looked in his glass and found it was Emma Hale, Daughter of old Mr Hail of Pensylvany, a girl that he had seen Before, for he had Bin Down there Before with me.

Joseph then went to Mr Stowels [Stowell] whare he had lived sometime Before. But Mr Stowel Could not pay him money for his work very well and he came to me perhaps in November and worked for me until about the time that he was Married, which I think was in February. And I paid him the money and I furnished him with a horse and Cutter to go and see his girl Down to Mr. Hails. And soon after this he was Married and Mr Stowel moved him and his wife to his fathers in Palmyra Ontario County.

Nothing material took place untill toard fall the forepart of September. I went to Rochester on Buisness and returnd By Palmyra to be there about the 22nt of September. I was there several Days. I will say there [was] a man near By the name Samuel Lawrance. He was a Seear [Seer] and he had Bin to the hill and knew about the things in the hill and he was trying to obtain them. He [Joseph Smith] had talked with me and told me the Conversation he had with the personage which told him if he would Do right according to the will of God he mite obtain [the plate] the 22nt Day of September Next and if not he never would have them. Now Joseph was some affraid of him [Samuel Lawrence] that he mite be a trouble to him. He therefore sint his father up to Sams as he Called him near night to see if there was any signs of his going away that night. He told his father to stay till near Dark and if he saw any signs of his going you till if I find him there I will thrash the stumps with him. So the old man came a way and saw no thing like it. This is to shoe [show] the troubles he had from time to time to obtain the plates. (Joseph Knight reminiscences, MS 3470, Church History Library)

This account is important, because Knight never mentions an angel, only a "personage" and he tells us that Joseph could not get the "Book" or record because he did not follow the instructions of the "personage". Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines personage as a "A man or woman of distinction." (That would be a ghost, since Joseph had not yet conceived of angels as men yet).

Joseph could not move the "book", and he is told that he must come back with "the right person". By this time Joseph had met Emma, so he claims that he saw her as the right person in his peep-stone, and Samuel Lawrence is made out to be Joseph's enemy.

Still, Knight claims that Lawrence knew all about the hill and what was there, and he was trying to obtain the treasure for himself.

Joseph also tells Knight that he needed to work for him because Stowell "could not pay him for his work very well". What work would that be? Not digging for mines, but peeping for treasure. Joseph simply could not find any for Stowell, and so there was nothing for him to do. He was a failed Peeker.

This part of the account by Knight seems to cover the period from the time some months after the Examination (November 1826) to when Joseph supposedly retrieved the record, (September 1827) and other future events. Knight does mention plates, but almost as an afterthought at the end of the first part of his recounting; he focuses on the word "book" to describe the item Smith spoke about. This is how it was described in the treasure digging yarn.

Knight also only mentions God twice in the whole manuscript. But the story of Samuel T. Lawrence is far different from the one that Joseph Knight was told.


It appears that Abner Cole was very informed about the Book of Mormon before it's publication, and a lot of what Smith was about before he organized his church. According to many Mormon Apologists, Dogberry was simply repeating rumors, but I don't think so, I think he was very well informed. I will mention this but I find it fascinating, here is a paragraph from a section in "The History of Wayne County", written well after Mormonism moved on, and notice the people they say were Smith's FOLLOWERS when he was in Manchester, etc. They include Samuel Lawrence, LUMAN WALTERS and many of those that wrote about Smith later. Some of them were perhaps his followers but before he started his church... Many are his money-digging compatriots from before he claimed to have found the gold plates...

Followers may be obtained for any creed. He formed an organization denominated "Latter-Day Saints." They are enumerated as Oliver Cowdery, Samuel Lawrence, Martin Harris, Preserved Harris, Peter Ingersoll, Charles Ford, George and Dolly Proper, of Palmyra, Ziba Peterson, Calvin Stoddard and wife Sophronia, of Macedon, Ezra Thayer, of Brighton, Leeman [Luman] Walters, of Pultneyville, Hiram Page, of Fayette, David Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, as well as Christian, John, and Peter, Jr., of Phelps, Simeon Nichols, of Farmington, William, Joshua, and Gad Stafford, David and Abram Fish, Robert Orr, K. H. Quance, John Morgan, Orrin and Caroline Rockwell, Mrs. S. Risley, and the Smith family. A man named Parley P. Pratt, from Ohio, stepped off a canal-boat at Palmyra, and joined the organization. Martin Harris desired the new book printed, and avowed to his wife his intention of incurring the expense. She knew that the result would be a loss of the farm, and while her husband slept secured and burnt the manuscript. The burning she kept secret, and Smith and Harris, fearing that they might be produced, dared not rewrite the manuscript. (History of Wayne County, New York, 150)
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _moksha »

I think LDS apologists do have a point: If early Christians were not necromancers then why were they hanging out in the Roman catacombs? Joseph Smith being a thaumaturge only proves it is all so true. That is why Dr. Peterson comes equipped with a divining rod.
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _grindael »

Hi everyone,

I'm bumping this... Soon after I published this I changed around my website and part of the end of this got lost, because when I changed the background from black to white, all the white text became unreadable and I had to manually change it all to black text. In doing so, all the links, etc also turned black and I could not get them to return to their original color. It has taken me some time to update things, and I just finished restoring PT II to what it was when it came out, (I have no freaking idea how the whole last three or four chapters got chopped off) and I've also added some new things that I left out (and decided to put back because they won't work in Pt. III) and felt would be better returned to Pt. II. (Like it isn't long enough, right?) Here is the link to Pt. II https://mormonitemusings.com/2019/04/09 ... the-money/

The new Material is at the end (last few chapters). You won't be disappointed and you will learn how the current apologist narrative about Smith's early years was invented in the mid-80's by Richard Bushman and of course Alan Taylor.

Anyway, the good news is that Pt. III is almost finished, and just for being so cool and patient, here is a preview of some of it (sans links, etc).

Part III: "...they was duped by ... Walters"

The old man [Joseph Smith, Sr.] was always telling yarns, he would go to turkey shoots & get tight & he would pretend to put spells on their guns & would tell them they could not shoot a turkey. At the time the big hole was dug in the hill they was duped by one Walters who pretended to be a conjurer. ~Lorenzo Saunders, 1833


Introduction

It was the Mormon church's worst nightmare. Documents had surfaced which brought to light something the church had worked hard to try and dispel for over a hundred years: that their first prophet and founder Joseph Smith had been heavily involved in the occult (as a teenager and young adult) and that instead of an angel appearing to the teenager in the fall of 1823, it was instead a treasure-guardian ghost, a trickster spirit who had transformed itself from (of all things) a white salamander! The shock-waves were felt throughout all of Mormondom, and soon the apologists came out of the woodwork to try and craft a story that would blend the world of the occult with Joseph's long promoted "religious" history. The Mormon Hierarchy gave pep talks to the members, (especially the young) begging them to hold on to their faith and in time all would be explained. Behind the scenes, the Mormon apologists gathered and as these documents were initially authenticated, (with Dean Jessee leading the charge) they scrambled to find some kind of way to explain how their founding prophet was so heavily involved in the occult. The first thing they did was to research salamanders. F.A.R.M.S. went into overdrive and they cracked the history books in an effort to find something beneficial that they could use about salamanders. (See also, "Farms Update" found here). They came up with a 30 page apologetic: "Preliminary Report: Why Might a Person in 1830 Connect An Angel with a Salanmander?," (STF-85b, FARMS Staff, Foundation for Ancient Research & Mormon Studies). Then, Mark Hofmann blew himself up and the whole house of cards came crashing down. Jerald and Sandra Tanner were right, the infamous Salamander Letter was a forgery. The church had paid for the documents (in one way or another), and now, all that research on salamanders was forgotten. But what were they to do about how they had tried to justify Smith's involvement in "folk magic"? Could unbake that cake? How were they to stand behind what Dean Jessee had written in 1984:

Dean Jessee wrote:Perhaps the most challenging aspect of the recently acquired Smith and Harris letters for Latter-day Saints is Joseph Smith's probable involvement in the "folk religion" or "mystical" elements of his time. The description by Martin Harris of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon using the idiom of contemporary folk magic, for example, seems unfamiliar and foreign to twentieth-century minds. Nonetheless though LDS readers may be inclined to reject the Smith-Harris letters because they are unfamiliar with the context and terminology, the issues the letters raise are not new nor are they irreconcilable.

Even if the Smith-Harris letters should prove spurious, substantial other early Mormon sources focus on the issues, raised issues one observer described as Joseph Smith's "supernatural power". A.W. Benton in 1831 wrote that for years prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon "Joseph Smith was about the country in the character of a glass looker pretending by means of a certain stone or glass which he put in a hat to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver." An acquaintance of the Smiths in Palmyra was quoted in 1833 as saying that "the Smith family held their son Joseph in high estimation on account of some supernatural power which power he received through the medium of a stone of peculiar quality." Joseph's brother-in-law heard him say that "Smith's gift in seeing with a stone and hat was a gift from God," and John A. Clark said that Joseph Smith Sr. claimed for his son "a sort of second sight, a power to look into the depths of the earth and discover where its precious treasures were hid." He added that on their digging excursions young Joseph was usually the guide. Joel Tiffany on the basis of interviewing Martin Harris observed that Joseph Jr. belonged to a company of money diggers and that Joseph "was the seer, he had a stone in which when it was placed in a hat and his face buried therein so as to exclude the light he could see as a clairvoyant." And Charles Marshall reporting testimony at Joseph Smith's 1826 Bainbridge trial said that Joseph testified that "he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were and that he had also frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds." Testifying at the same trial Josiah Stowell said that Joseph "had looked for him on three occasions for buried money gold and a salt spring and added that before Joseph ever came to Bainbridge he had described the Stowell house and outbuildings buildings out through his stone." Twice during the trial Stowell mentioned his implicit faith in the prisoner's skill according to another report of the trial Joseph Smith described his finding of a stone in his youth and upon looking in it he discovered that time & place & distance were annihilated that all intervening obstacles were removed & that he possessed one of the attributes of deity an all seeing eye and Joseph Sr testified of his son s wonderful triumphs as a seer and described very many instances of his finding hidden & stolen goods stating that he and his son were both mortified that this wonderful power which god had so miraculously given him should be used only in search of filthy lucre or its equivalent and that his constant prayer to his heavenly father was to manifest his will concerning this marvelous power."

Motivated by abundant sources and a humanistic viewpoint Fawn Brodie in her 1945 biography of Joseph Smith developed the thesis that Joseph Smith's claim as a prophet evolved wholly from a background of magic. Others since that time have followed this theme assuming that if it could be shown that Joseph was a money digger he could not have been religiously sincere. However as Marvin Hill has noted, this conclusion rests upon twentieth century rationalistic assumptions not on the nineteenth century situation, for many acknowledged religious people of Joseph Smith s day were engaged in that activity. Hill also draws attention to David Whitmer's statement that while Joseph was using his stone he remained humble and sincere and only later grew worldly. The reverse of the evolution some tend to see as they move from the "old spirit" to the "angel".

While we need to acknowledge and understand the folk religion in which Joseph Smith participated we need not accept twentieth century secular interpretations of what it means. Indeed initial study suggests that the more we learn about this phenomenon the better we will see how these folk ways were an integral part of the faith and religion of his age and of others as well. Whatever observers may have perceived in Joseph Smith, he remains the primary witness to the events surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. His story and that of his family both as revealed in the early documents and in their later numerous testimonies cannot be ignored. If his history lacks detailed discussion of early events it must be remembered that he wrote at a time when antagonism was strong, no doubt motivating him to omit things he might have included in a less hostile setting. Furthermore the nature of his experience certainly was such as to preclude a rational explanation he told a Nauvoo audience just before his death: "You don t know me you never knew my heart no man knows my history I cannot tell it I shall never undertake it I don t blame you for not believing my history if I had not experienced what I have I could not have believed it myself." Nonetheless, the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's other accomplishments remain historical realities to be reckoned with and his accounts of them though brief contain precise detail and sincerely expressed feelings which cannot be ignored.

If the Harris letter should prove authentic, any use of it with respect to the origin of the Book of Mormon must consider its deviation from other sources by Harris which portray the Joseph Smith story of the angel Moroni. But even taking the letter at face value, neither the writer nor its recipient seemed to perceive its message as out of the ordinary, or as inconsistent with biblical understanding that readers in our time do probably tells more about our mind set and unfamiliarity with the treasure and digging culture that produced the letter than anything else.

The discussion of treasure digging in the context of Mormon beginnings as introduced by Fawn Brodie and Marvin Hill and continued more recently by Richard Bushman and Jan Shipps will no doubt receive further attention in the wake of the Smith and Harris letters until there is, to use B. H. Roberts's phrase "a profounder and broader view of Joseph Smith's life and mission."


Notice how totally one-sided Jessee's report of Joseph's exploits is. There is nothing about how what Joseph was doing was illegal, or the scorn that many in his own day showed for what they called "juggling". The great majority of Americans considered money digging to be a worthless pursuit, worthy of their scorn.

Jessee also wants to have it both ways. Smith downplays his "folk" beliefs because of persecution, yet, according to the apologists just about everyone had those beliefs! So how was he being persecuted for them?

Joseph doesn't reveal the claimed 1820 vision either, supposedly because he was scoffed at by one of the many "corrupt professors". Smith was "persecuted" for his religious views and for his practice of folk magic. He was persecuted for anything he did! And if Jesse is right, that Smith would have included more, how does he explain the "revelation" to Oliver Cowdery, where Smith & Rigdon transformed his "sprout of nature" into a "rod of Aaron"? This is certainly not twentieth century secular interpretation, it was only a few years after Smith published the Book of Mormon. Jessee's apologetic antics here, are disappointing.

And Jessee doesn't mention how Smith failed time after time to find any treasure!  He cherry picks the 1826 trial testimonies, never even stating why Smith was hauled into court in the first place! For example, Arad Stowell testified that Smith's, "deception appeared so palpable, that [he] went off disgusted." Another witness, McMaster testified that he "likewise came away disgusted, finding the deception so palpable." And then there was Jonathan Thompson, an employee of Josiah Stowell, who testified that "He could not assert that anything of value was ever obtained by them." Smith, claimed Stowell told him about "money buried on Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt-spring," but nothing was ever found. Stowell also claimed Smith "had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner [Smith] had been in search of it; that prisoner said that it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail-feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail-feather, but money was gone..." They found a tail feather! I wonder if it was a turkey feather?

Unfortunately, this early article by Jessee, addressing the concerns that Mormon apologists had about Smith's involvement in the occult and how they were dealing with it, would become the template for all the subsequent apologetic blather that has been churned out - even to this day. The poor critics living in the twentieth century would never understand the folk-magic culture. We simply assume that if one is a treasure digger they could not be religiously sincere. But Smith wasn't simply digging for treasure! He was claiming that he knew where all these miraculous treasures were buried in the earth and was directing people to them! Treasures that certainly were never found by Josiah Stowell or Joseph Smith for that matter.

If Smith was so successful, (and triumphant as the apologists claim) why didn't they ever have any real money in Palmyra? Surely, if God were allowing Smith to train as a "Seer" by way of folk magic and peep-stones, he would have found something to benefit the family and allow them to live comfortably. But the Smith family were dirt poor, and lost their land because of the two Joseph's failures at moneydigging!

Even Jesus in the Bible used his power to find money and pay the tax man! Here is the strange account of the fish and the gold coin:

After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”
“Yes, he does,” he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”
“From others,” Peter answered.
"Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.” (Matthew 17)


Lucy claims that they had to rely on the kindness of a neighbor to be able to stay in their house, which they soon had to leave anyway. But I'm sure that the Mormon Apologists can come up with some fantastical reason why the Smith's could never benefit from all their seeric triumphs.

Jessee also quotes from Marvin Hill's review of Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History from 1972 (when her revised edition was published) and what Hill writes is rather instructive:

First was her [Brodie's] acceptance of the validity of the testimony collected by Philastus Hurlbut that before Joseph Smith was a prophet he was an irreligious money digger who used a magic stone to discover buried treasure. Her thesis is that Joseph gradually matured as a prophet, gave up his stone and presumably his belief in magic, and gave himself wholly to acting out the more dignified religious role. There is, of course, a major discrepancy in the argument because Joseph did not give up the stone or cease to believe in its powers even after he had reached the pinnacle of his power in Nauvoo."


And yet, this is pretty much what the apologists are claiming today as you will see below. The apologist's fairy-tale (where they try to justify that it was part of God's plan for Joseph that he con people out of their money for training purposes) is simply ludicrous. If you notice, this is the same argument that they used in relation to the racist priesthood ban! Everyone was doing it, so there can be no reproach for those who were just following cultural "norms". Here is how it all began...


And.. another bonus Something I discovered (not the first!) about Luman Walters...

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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Kishkumen »

Notice how Gardner calls 17-19th Century superstition a "specialized sub-community" with ties to "very old and very respected practices". And what other practices were "respected" by the common folk of the middle ages? What he's doing here is ridiculous. And of course by Smith's time it was respected by a "marginalized" section of society! Why? Because it was all superstitious nonsense that didn't have the trappings of Christianity or other "major" faiths. (Which have their own problems with superstitious nonsense). But the Smith's were dabbling in the occult quite often and as I point out in Pt. II, they lost their farm because the two Jo's were so obsessed with digging for money, so what Lucy writes is totally wrong. They did let that crap get in the way and the apologists know it.

I don’t understand the term “specialized sub-community.” First of all, that is inaccurate. Lots of people, in all walks of life, participated in folk-magical practices. And that brings me to the problem I have with this passage of grindael’s post. To say that Christian folk magic does not have the trappings of Christianity is inaccurate. Christian folk magic is Christian. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many Christians have been prejudiced against these practices, or at least knew to be circumspect because others were. Indubitably. But why does that matter?

Personally, in my professional writing I would avoid prejudiced terms and depictions of religions and religious practices I do not agree with. As concerns Gardner, I would take issue with his highly defensive posture, which pushes him to characterize the practice of Christian folk magic inaccurately, but you are erring in the opposite direction by using language like “nonsense.”
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _grindael »

Kishkumen wrote:
Notice how Gardner calls 17-19th Century superstition a "specialized sub-community" with ties to "very old and very respected practices". And what other practices were "respected" by the common folk of the middle ages? What he's doing here is ridiculous. And of course by Smith's time it was respected by a "marginalized" section of society! Why? Because it was all superstitious nonsense that didn't have the trappings of Christianity or other "major" faiths. (Which have their own problems with superstitious nonsense). But the Smith's were dabbling in the occult quite often and as I point out in Pt. II, they lost their farm because the two Jo's were so obsessed with digging for money, so what Lucy writes is totally wrong. They did let that crap get in the way and the apologists know it.

I don’t understand the term “specialized sub-community.” First of all, that is inaccurate. Lots of people, in all walks of life, participated in folk-magical practices. And that brings me to the problem I have with this passage of grindael’s post. To say that Christian folk magic does not have the trappings of Christianity is inaccurate. Christian folk magic is Christian. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that many Christians have been prejudiced against these practices, or at least knew to be circumspect because others were. Indubitably. But why does that matter?

Personally, in my professional writing I would avoid prejudiced terms and depictions of religions and religious practices I do not agree with. As concerns Gardner, I would take issue with his highly defensive posture, which pushes him to characterize the practice of Christian folk magic inaccurately, but you are erring in the opposite direction by using language like “nonsense.”


Hi Kish, thanks for the comments and I can see how you may think that I'm denigrating all folk magic here, but I wasn't. It was Gardner's comments prefacing this:

Brant Gardner clarifies the role that Joseph and his stone played within the community of Palmyra,


Read what I have on folk magic in the two parts up already and you will see that I don't characterize it all as "nonsense", only the apologist arguments in relation to it. Christians practiced folk magic, it doesn't make it wholly Christian. It is subjective like all beliefs so there is no real consensus what it really is. A belief in Satan, in ghosts, or religious, it depends on who it is and the fact is that con artists have taken advantage of folks since the beginning of time by preying on their beliefs, whether the individual thought them Christian or not. But I'm not aware of any Christian organizations (except perhaps some very fringe ones) that ever embraced folk magic as one of the tenets of their respective religions. I go into this in depth in the series. As far as Gardner is concerned...

I was focused on "Joseph and his stone". Tying peep-stones to Christianity in my opinion is ludicrous. It was done by way of "urim and thummim" and the fact is no one know what the heck that was. The stones in the breastplate of the high priest were in all probability decorative. Some think they were sticks. The fact is, no one knows. No one. There are some ancient Jewish legends and stories about it, but it's all guesses at best. And Old Testament Judaism is not Christianity and Jesus didn't include money-digging in any of the Gospels as far as I know.

Peeping/juggling in the 18th and 19th centuries was a scam and against the law. To try and make it some kind of mainstream (everyone was doing it - it was inseparable from Christianity, etc.) religious practice is an apologetic device and yes, nonsense.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Early Histories of Joseph Smith: Work to the Money Pt. I

Post by _Kishkumen »

grindael wrote:Christians practiced folk magic, it doesn't make it wholly Christian. It is subjective like all beliefs so there is no real consensus what it really is. A belief in Satan, in ghosts, or religious, it depends on who it is and the fact is that con artists have taken advantage of folks since the beginning of time by preying on their beliefs, whether the individual thought them Christian or not. But I'm not aware of any Christian organizations (except perhaps some very fringe ones) that ever embraced folk magic as one of the tenets of their respective religions. I go into this in depth in the series. As far as Gardner is concerned...

I was focused on "Joseph and his stone". Tying peep-stones to Christianity in my opinion is ludicrous. It was done by way of "urim and thummim" and the fact is no one know what the heck that was. The stones in the breastplate of the high priest were in all probability decorative. Some think they were sticks. The fact is, no one knows. No one. There are some ancient Jewish legends and stories about it, but it's all guesses at best. And Old Testament Judaism is not Christianity and Jesus didn't include money-digging in any of the Gospels as far as I know.

Peeping/juggling in the 18th and 19th centuries was a scam and against the law. To try and make it some kind of mainstream (everyone was doing it - it was inseparable from Christianity, etc.) religious practice is an apologetic device and yes, nonsense.


I’m sorry to have to differ with you so vehemently on this point, but you are deeply mistaken here, to the point of appearing incoherent. The only sense I can make out of this is that you are engaging in the same kind of theological boundary maintenance that Sandra Tanner, Ron Huggins, and even LDS apologists have engaged in.

It would be one thing to refuse to employ the term magic on the grounds that it is prejudicial and practically meaningless. It would be another to say that it is a term of convenience used to discuss a collection of practices that passed under the name magic. It is, however, completely baffling to see anyone but a religious apologist of some sort—and this would include the people I listed above—do this for the purpose of defending their preferred theological commitments and hang-ups.

When Jesus healed people by applying his spittle to them, he was engaging in practices that otherwise often were labeled as magic. Raising people from the dead was also often viewed as a magical feat. Magic, in short, is not infrequently comparable to accusations of cannibalism. It is something your neighbor does, not you, even when you are doing basically the same things.

Cornelius Agrippa, who wrote one of the most important grimoires ever, was a Christian and he wrote as a Christian. His magic is not separable from his Christianity. Magic is primarily a grab bag of practices and techniques that have been employed pretty universally and are rightly associated with the groups who use them, as the content can change according to groups. These groups can be religious or ethnic. There are Christian magicians, Jewish magicians, Greek magicians, etc., etc.

A peepstone can be just at home in a Christian context as any other. The observation that it is not Christian because it does not appear in the New Testament is utterly absurd. On that basis, the creeds of Christendom are not Christian either. There is Christian magic if there is magic at all. There is not Christianity, which has nothing to do with magic, and then the magic of the devil, just because people incoherently interpret the Bible in that way.

If it so be that we all disagree about this, then that is the way it will be. I will continue to come down on the ahistorical bigotry that associates Mormonism with the devil on account of so-called occult elements. Historically illiterate Christian polemics should not win out on this. It is a disgusting smear tactic.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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