Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Mary]

In the Hadfield and Bullock cases, the children exhibited strong evidence of having been sexually abused.. Did they catch the right perpetrators? Hopefully.

What was that "strong evidence"?

It was strong enough to convict, Cinepro.

[_cinepro]

It was strong enough to convict, Cinepro.

For molestation cases in the 1980s, that's saying it was possibly extremely weak evidence. You should know that by now.

If you need a refresher on how that's the case, this article is a pretty good illustration:

Kids Don't Lie

[_Rosebud]

Both sides have been sensationalized.

That's why collecting documentation, available evidence, and missing evidence and noting media omissions is important.

Documentation relevant to this case is more helpful than broad statements about perceptions of societal behaviors during certain time periods.

[_cinepro]

Both sides have been sensationalized.

That's why collecting documentation, available evidence, and missing evidence and noting media omissions is important.

Documentation relevant to this case is more helpful than broad statements about perceptions of societal behaviors during certain time periods.

What kind of documentation would you expect for something that didn't happen?

[_Rosebud]

Both sides have been sensationalized.

That's why collecting documentation, available evidence, and missing evidence and noting media omissions is important.

Documentation relevant to this case is more helpful than broad statements about perceptions of societal behaviors during certain time periods.

What kind of documentation would you expect for something that didn't happen?

What else do you know?

[_cinepro]

What else do you know?

What I'm asking is what kind of documentation you are expecting?

Here's my theory:

The Miles were a nice family living in the Utah suburbs in the 1980s who never even dreamed of molesting or harming any kids.

Some kids in their ward were taken to a crackpot therapist who elicited accusations from them that they were getting molested by their babysitter (based on the information the mom had given about them having been babysat by a girl who had been accused by other kids under similarly dubious circumstances). With additional "counseling", the kids then implicated two teenage boys, and then the Miles. None of the accusations were true, but they were made public.

Now, if you are the Miles, how do you show you are innocent? What kind of "documentation" are you looking for?

[_Rosebud]

What else do you know?

What I'm asking is what kind of documentation you are expecting?

Here's my theory:

The Miles were a nice family living in the Utah suburbs in the 1980s who never even dreamed of molesting or harming any kids.

Some kids in their ward were taken to a crackpot therapist who elicited accusations from them that they were getting molested by their babysitter (based on the information the mom had given about them having been babysat by a girl who had been accused by other kids under similarly dubious circumstances). With additional "counseling", the kids then implicated two teenage boys, and then the Miles. None of the accusations were true, but they were made public.

Now, if you are the Miles, how do you show you are innocent? What kind of "documentation" are you looking for?

I understand your theory.

I understand the theory of the therapists who believe victims.

I am not interested in theory because I already understand the variety of theories.

I am looking for all documentation related to this case as well as to the broader accusations of the time period and presently, including documents that appear to prove "hysteria" as well as documents of investigations and documents that address crimes committed.

I would like to hear from the therapists who believe victims. Right now they appear to be being silent. Barbara Snow is not alone in her beliefs. Why are there therapists still quietly working on this?

I would like to hear from Barbara Snow. She is likely not a perfect person, none of us are. I am not convinced she's a "crackpot." I took an incredible class from her my senior year of my undergrad. She is not as easily dismissed as the media appears to be making her out to be. I don't know why the Trib has taken the time to continue to report on her probations. If I understand correctly, Snow felt the media reporting of the time period was unjust. Why? Where do we have a public record of her position? I assume the court records from the cases. I would like to see them. I would like another statement from her.

I would like the records of the Attorney General investigation, not just their summarized report. I think those may be available through the AG office, if requested correctly. We should look at why they came to the conclusion this was real.

I would like to see the police reports from the time period in which the Miles were investigated. I am concerned about reports that the records are missing. I don't know if that is true. I would like to know for sure. I would like documentation one way or another.

I would like to compare all the available records with what the Trib and the Des News chose to report. I would like to examine the newspaper articles in comparison to the documents to see if I learn anything about bias or omissions. I am concerned that both papers took similar positions in reporting the current case, especially considering what the Attorney General report said about the role of media in relation to prosecutions.

I would like to examine all of these records in chronological order. I have spent enough time watching dishonest people try to sway public opinion to know that examining what happened in order can be very helpful when trying to figure something out.

Thus, the document now linked in my signature line.

[_Rosebud]

And regardless of what's found, I'd like to make a shout-out for all the good work our law enforcement officers do. They're stuck with the task of dealing with some of the worst aspects of human interactions. There are so many mentally ill people and the police and the FBI are sometimes the first people who have to deal with them. They often have a great deal of compassion for all the people they see who are coping with psychotic disorders or addictions.

If we do find that the police didn't investigate the reports correctly (hopefully the records aren't really missing), it's hard to lay blame at their feet. They deal with a lot of unwell people and have to make snap judgements about what is worth giving credence to and what is a mistaken understanding.

That said, a snap judgement to not do a real investigation because the claims seemed too preposterous to be true still means a real investigation wasn't done. If that turns out to be the case, the argument that "the police investigated and didn't find anything" is null.

[_cinepro]

If we do find that the police didn't investigate the reports correctly (hopefully the records aren't really missing), it's hard to lay blame at their feet. They deal with a lot of unwell people and have to make snap judgements about what is worth giving credence to and what is a mistaken understanding.

That said, a snap judgement to not do a real investigation because the claims seemed too preposterous to be true still means a real investigation wasn't done. If that turns out to be the case, the argument that "the police investigated and didn't find anything" is null.

The most interesting question in all this is what happened if the Miles were actually engaging in group abuse of the children (including making them drink "a concoction of urine and feces"). Do you believe they stopped after the Carstensen children revealed the abuse? Or have they continued abusing kids to this day?

[_Rosebud]

If we do find that the police didn't investigate the reports correctly (hopefully the records aren't really missing), it's hard to lay blame at their feet. They deal with a lot of unwell people and have to make snap judgements about what is worth giving credence to and what is a mistaken understanding.

That said, a snap judgement to not do a real investigation because the claims seemed too preposterous to be true still means a real investigation wasn't done. If that turns out to be the case, the argument that "the police investigated and didn't find anything" is null.

The most interesting question in all this is what happened if the Miles were actually engaging in group abuse of the children (including making them drink "a concoction of urine and feces"). Do you believe they stopped after the Carstensen children revealed the abuse? Or have they continued abusing kids to this day?

I have no way of knowing these things.

I do think the fact that since about 2010 just about everyone has been carrying around an audio recorder and a video camera at all times would act as a huge crime deterrent. I imagine it's a lot harder to get away with violent crimes now than it used to be. The perpetrators would have to constantly be trying to ensure nobody was recording anything.