Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -Chap 23 up 10/15

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_jfro18
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Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -Chap 23 up 10/15

Post by _jfro18 »

Recently I put up a site at http://www.ldsdiscussions.com that is just going over the different church topics and trying to really go at the apologetic takes head on. It includes annotated LDS essays, many of which were done by a guy from the NOM board and are amazingly good, and some timelines like the priesthood restoration which I think are really telling about how that was retrofitted and without question to me not a real event.

Anyway - beyond the standard topics I'm going to be doing a chapter a day of Saints in just fact-checking and pointing out where the church is still hiding/deflecting/distorting the truth.

We just published chapter twenty three of our Saints review/fact-check at https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/saints-part-3 - we are now on "part 3" of Saints, but if you need to catch up on chapters 1-21 they are still at http://www.ldsdiscussions.com/saints.

I'm trying to keep it somewhat concise so anyone who reads it doesn't get immediately bored, but also covering the areas that are dishonest as best as I can.

If anyone has any thoughts let me know, and if you have any points you think are worth adding please let me know (and include sources too since I want to make sure I'm covered on the points I make) - message me here or through email. I know I'm missing stuff because I'm only spending a little bit of time each night doing a chapter, so it's mostly things that are popping into my head on first read that are going in... which is all you need to know about how bad Saints is with regards to being "The Standard of Truth." You do not need to dig deep to realize what they're doing here to inoculate members.

Thanks for reading :)
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 13 times in total.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -one chapter a

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Thanks for your work in advance.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_jfro18
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -one chapter a

Post by _jfro18 »

Exiled wrote:Thanks for your work in advance.

Thanks! If you ever have any suggestions, corrections, or anything else please let me know... going somewhat quick on these because work is busy, so I know I might have typos, miss some issues with Saints, or get something wrong.

Chapter four is up today... amazing to watch how they gloss over treasure digging and how the entire part about retrieving the plates is a retelling of Lucy Mack Smith's history. Of the 15 citations following the Joseph and Emma story, 13 of them are from Lucy Mack Smith's history... written 20 years later.

For the "Standard of Truth," they seem to be cherry picking what goes in very, very carefully.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -one chapter a

Post by _Dr Exiled »

It snows a lot in SLC, at times, and apparently a lot of the "snow job" ended up in "Saints."
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_I have a question
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -one chapter a

Post by _I have a question »

I didn't think much of this initially. I was wrong.

It's going to turn into a proper condemnation of the claim that Snow makes about "Saints".
Saints, however, is not historical fiction. It is a true story based on the records of people from the past. Every detail and every line of dialogue is supported by historical sources.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/02/sain ... s?lang=eng

Elder Cook
“So many things have been taken out of context and seen in a miniscule way,” Elder Cook said, “and this now allows a complete picture that we think will bless the lives of the rising generation and our generation, even those of us that are older.”

https://www.lds.org/church/news/saints- ... y?lang=eng
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_jfro18
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -one chapter a

Post by _jfro18 »

I have a question wrote:I didn't think much of this initially. I was wrong.

Elder Cook
“So many things have been taken out of context and seen in a miniscule way,” Elder Cook said, “and this now allows a complete picture that we think will bless the lives of the rising generation and our generation, even those of us that are older.”

https://www.LDS.org/church/news/saints- ... y?lang=eng


I think Saints is going to be very faith promoting to those who read it without any other knowledge of these issues. It's written like a fiction novel, and it glosses over difficult issues so down the road members can at least say they've heard of it.

The problem is going to be that the moment these members hear anything more in-depth, they're going to wonder why the church didn't tell them more. And the omissions here are just so large that if they choose to read up on history they are going to be overwhelmed by how much difficult information the church chose to hide, which violates their own definition of honesty.
_Rosebud
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -Chapter 9 up

Post by _Rosebud »

Wow. Thanks for this. I'm not planning to spend any time on Saints itself so this will give me good overview.

This isn't much to contribute, but I found a small typo in Chapter One numeral 2: "Because of that, the information becomes much more questionable for it's accuracy."
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_jfro18
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -Chap 20 up 10

Post by _jfro18 »

We're up to chapter 20 and they again reference reformed Egyptian as if it's a confirmed, normal thing.

Does anyone have *any* compelling evidence that there was such a thing in Egyptian? I've read FAIR claim they have different versions of Egyptian that are shorthand for the long-form language, but does that even prove anything since none of the "characters" match what Joseph copied down?

Makes me so sad to see so many people devote their lives to this... and even sadder that I used to believe it.
_I have a question
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Re: Fact-checking Saints @ ldsdicsussions.com -Chap 20 up 10

Post by _I have a question »

jfro18 wrote:We're up to chapter 20 and they again reference reformed Egyptian as if it's a confirmed, normal thing.

Does anyone have *any* compelling evidence that there was such a thing in Egyptian? I've read FAIR claim they have different versions of Egyptian that are shorthand for the long-form language, but does that even prove anything since none of the "characters" match what Joseph copied down?

Makes me so sad to see so many people devote their lives to this... and even sadder that I used to believe it.


I think having the term 'Reformed Egyptian' in a volume of reformed history is weirdly consistent...

But no. It's not a real thing. It's a made-up thing, like a curelom.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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