FARMS Actually Converted an Atheist With Evidence for Book of Mormon

[_moksha]

Armed with a sure knowledge that the Church is true, FARMS had the mustard seed that could move mountains and convert atheists. If only that Ziggurat had been built, the Bradford Calamity would not have taken place. Dr. Gregory L. Smith, Public Relations Director for the Maxwell FARMS Institute would have confirmed the eventual conversion and banishment of so-called "prince of darkness" Doctor Scratch to a smoothie-netherworld.

To quote Dr. Smith, "If tapirs had feathers, Lamanites would fly".

[_Philo Sofee]

Surprised Dawkins converted anyone, but then again, I believed in the Church narrative for a period of my life, so who am I to judge.

I am not a philosopher, I am just a nobody, but I found Dawkins to be kind of crappy at philosophy compared to other pop atheists. Not a big deal.

Agreed. He ain't much with philosophy. Decent with Biology (o.k., really good). David Eller is better in my opinion on the philosophy angle. But hey, the atheists did their thing and accomplished their goal as James Lindsay said (Everyone is Wrong About God). They got the subject out in the open and talked about and through, so much the worse for the anthropomorphizers. In light of that, I am finding the Universalist Unitarian philosopher Charles Hartshorne interesting reading as he changes it up on the Classical Philosophy of God and perfection pretty darn good. He followed Whitehead's lead with process theology quite a bit and added some stuff no one else had thought about. His book Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes is quite a shell shock for those who think they have God all figured out. I rather enjoyed it.

[_moinmoin]

What a blast from the past, and small world! When I spoke at the FAIR Conference in Frankfurt, we also did a fireside in Strasbourg (France). I needed my slides and handout packet translated into French, and FAIR sent me an email address of someone to ask. The man, Marcel Kahne, got me back the slides and the document in like 15 minutes. I couldn't believe how fast it was, and how little time it took! I later learned that Kahne was the top translator for French for the Church. Even later, I read some anecdotes in General Authority talks about Kahne's background and experience. I had no idea whom I was sending my stuff to to request a translation, and he was very unassuming ("Here you go, happy to help!").

My 1st counselor the first time I was a bishop was from a wealthy, prominent atheist family. He infuriated his family when he got baptized, and then served a mission a year later. He has a J. D. (edit: if you just type "J" and "D," this board auto corrects it to "John Dehlin") and an MBA, and has a politically-connected position of some prominence and does strategy theory training around the world for government, business, and military. I remember asking him about his conversion on the way to girls camp; specifically, how he, as an atheist, came to believe he knew and didn't chalk it up to auto-suggestion, wishful thinking, confirmation bias, etc. His answer was pretty extensive and analytical, but I found it very interesting precisely because he knew all of the atheist objections and criticism of faith, belief, and testimony.

A favorite anecdote of mine he told was from when he returned from his mission. His older brother, whom he was very close to, suddenly committed suicide. This devastated the family, and my friend was out to sea. He went to the temple, seeking solace, understanding, and direction. While in the chapel waiting for his session, he prayed and told God that he wasn't asking for a sign, but that he really needed help. He was sad, and wanted to know that his brother was "okay." Immediately, the little old lady playing the music in the chapel shifted from her hymn and started playing Sibellius' "Finlandia." He burst into tears, because Sebellius was his brother's favorite composer. The moving pieces in this miracle are pretty remarkable, because the women who at the time played music in the chapel (it's automated now, on player pianos) were precisely *not* the type of person to "go rogue" and play unauthorized music. Can you imagine any of the temple organists deciding to deviate from the white binder "Hymns authorized for use in the temple" to play a classical piece? What did that look like in her mind, and what convinced her to do it, anyway? And her playing that was a direct and an immediate answer to my friend's prayer . . .

[_Gadianton]

His answer was pretty extensive and analytical, but I found it very interesting precisely because he knew all of the atheist objections and criticism of faith, belief, and testimony.

well of course he knew all that. I have my doubts, as I'm rarely impressed with how much atheists know about atheism, and so if you could get him to come to this board and defend his faith, that would be appreciated.

While the real problem does have something to do with basic knowledge, it doesn't have everything to do with knowledge. The hope of immortality or personal aggrandizement in an afterlife context is a lot to compete with.
I imagine being wealthy only complicates the problem. To know that all your fortunes amount to nothing at death.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Can you imagine any of the temple organists deciding to deviate from the white binder "Hymns authorized for use in the temple" to play a classical piece? What did that look like in her mind, and what convinced her to do it, anyway? And her playing that was a direct and an immediate answer to my friend's prayer . . .

That was a really nice story moinmoin. Thanks for sharing.

I just read a fairly extensive history on the war in South Sudan. It was a shocking and horrifying epic of brutality among various factions that includes burning children to death, bashing babies against trees (or the ground or against pylons or some other object), raping children, raping women, raping men, enemy disembowelment, disease, rampant graft, torture that includes eyes being gouged out and the acts are filmed, carving the flesh off prisoners, summary executions, and pretty much every possible form of violence and evil that fits somewhere in the above narrative.

So, I have to say it was nice to read that God took time out of His schedule to gently influence the musical choice the sister decided to play as a divine comfort to your friend. It's all about priorities.

- Doc

[Guest]

A favorite anecdote of mine he told was from when he returned from his mission. His older brother, whom he was very close to, suddenly committed suicide. This devastated the family, and my friend was out to sea. He went to the temple, seeking solace, understanding, and direction. While in the chapel waiting for his session, he prayed and told God that he wasn't asking for a sign, but that he really needed help. He was sad, and wanted to know that his brother was "okay." Immediately, the little old lady playing the music in the chapel shifted from her hymn and started playing Sibellius' "Finlandia." He burst into tears, because Sebellius was his brother's favorite composer. The moving pieces in this miracle are pretty remarkable, because the women who at the time played music in the chapel (it's automated now, on player pianos) were precisely *not* the type of person to "go rogue" and play unauthorized music. Can you imagine any of the temple organists deciding to deviate from the white binder "Hymns authorized for use in the temple" to play a classical piece? What did that look like in her mind, and what convinced her to do it, anyway? And her playing that was a direct and an immediate answer to my friend's prayer . . .

Didn’t prompt somebody to...you know...intervene in the suicide...but did intervene in what organ music got played. Tender mercies. Cool story bro. When that God of yours learns about priorities, He’s gonna be awesome.

God let’s your brother commit suicide, but doesn’t let the organist play the music in the temple she’s supposed to play.
Mormon God everybody <applause>.

[_Lemmie]

A favorite anecdote of mine he told was from when he returned from his mission. His older brother, whom he was very close to, suddenly committed suicide. This devastated the family, and my friend was out to sea. He went to the temple, seeking solace, understanding, and direction. While in the chapel waiting for his session, he prayed and told God that he wasn't asking for a sign, but that he really needed help. He was sad, and wanted to know that his brother was "okay." Immediately, the little old lady playing the music in the chapel shifted from her hymn and started playing Sibellius' "Finlandia." He burst into tears, because Sebellius was his brother's favorite composer. The moving pieces in this miracle are pretty remarkable, because the women who at the time played music in the chapel (it's automated now, on player pianos) were precisely *not* the type of person to "go rogue" and play unauthorized music. Can you imagine any of the temple organists deciding to deviate from the white binder "Hymns authorized for use in the temple" to play a classical piece? What did that look like in her mind, and what convinced her to do it, anyway? And her playing that was a direct and an immediate answer to my friend's prayer . . .

I'm glad your friend was comforted by that.

Defining second-hand coincidence as miracle is problematic, however. Suddenly hearing a piece of music that after the fact one determines is one of the pieces of music that one finds meaningful, in a place where meaningful songs are played continuously, unfortunately sounds like one of those hundreds of faith-promoting rumors that everyone's friend has told them.

In fact, even DCP recently told of a friend's coincidencemiracle, where he was having a difficult time and suddenly heard a song that was one that he found particularly meaningful, while he was in a location where meaningful songs are played 24/7. Small world, huh?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

moinmoin,

Can you please watch this BBC expose on the desperate situation in South Africa which details the rape epidemic, HIV positive rapists, vigilante justice, a 3rd world living situation, and why God wouldn't prioritize them over hooking your friend up with a nice song?

https://streamable.com/luw2m

- Doc

[_Philo Sofee]

Makes ya wonder when Mormons are gonna catch on that their miracle stories backfire, every... single... time, due to reality.

[_moksha]

Makes ya wonder when Mormons are gonna catch on that their miracle stories backfire, every... single... time, due to reality.

Would you formally suggest that COJCOLDSers investigate each alleged instance of claimed miracles, like Catholics do, before deciding whether the claim was valid? That would be a lot of work before each conference talk and book publications by Authorities. Isn't this a concern mainly of critics and not recommend-carrying TBMs?

To quote a scripture from these Latter-Days:

If you believe, the Lord will reveal it
And you'll know it's all true, you'll just feel it
You'll be a Mormon
And, by gosh, a Mormon just believes.
(A Mormon just believes!)