Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural Views?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural Views?

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Consiglierie several years ago made a comment that just stuck out to me tonight and which I wish to elaborate on a little bit.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/537 ... ye/?page=1

I think it wise to try to see writings from within the culture of the author.

Problems mount as we try to force our own cultural and scientific understandings on ancient texts.

Jack West (among others) was famous for trying to make Abraham 3 teach modern scientific principles, with less than stellar results. (Pardon the pun.)


This was when Consig was pro Mormon. I myself had used this argument as an apologist. A question arises however once pondering occurs. It was precisely in regarding the scriptures from within the culture of the authors that helped me grasp the truth we are reading mythology, not revealed truth from an objective outside point of view. The claim is that God revealed truths to them, that is, knowledge God had that they couldn't have had in their own cultural myopia they had no choice to exist within. It is from the outside, with a more real knowledge that revelation is supposed to present, otherwise, what's the point of revelation at all? Within a cultural predilection means, by definition the culture does not have the truth, and hence God condescends to impart actual knowledge and truth which has to differ from the culture he is making his revelation to in the first place.

Because our own culture has surpassed the ancients' views, of course problems arise when we compare the two. But the sacred texts we are supposedly comparing are those which God has revelaed outside impartial and objective truth, not an ancient culture's point of view, else what possible sense does revelation make? If God simply told the ancients what they already knew there could have been no possible progress in actual knowledge could there have been?

From our point of view, it has not been God in much of any manner who has advanced our knowledge via revelation, it has been because we have looked, observed, tested, and confirmed or disconfirmed as to what is true or not. It is no surprise at all that our view is vastly different from the ancient's view. But then, why hold onto their view as if it contained objective truth from a God who had the big picture already and was supposedly presenting that to the ancients? He obviously didn't do it very well.

Jack West's problem was the same as today's Mormon apologists who continue in that silly vein of attempting to show the ancient views presaged our own cosmological understanding. They do not correlate. But if revelation from a God who wants us to know reality and truth that lack of correlation can cause serious cognitive dissonance. Hence, ancient revelation did nothing either for the ancients' understanding reality and truth, nor for us, since we have vastly surpassed their view, and surpassed it with seriously incredible evidence. What else is the only honest possible conclusion than that we are reading ancient myth not revelation of actual and real truth? This is why an appeal to any scripture for truth of what reality is, just doesn't hold as much water as I was taught it will.

Just musing out loud for a few minutes.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _spotlight »

I hope I am welcome to post in this thread some of my musings without it being considered a derail as well.

Everytime a bell rings, an angel gets his wings. Less frequently a member of La Iglesia de Jesucristo de los Santos de los Últimos Días (just trying to mix it up a bit) manages to do enough work to obtain the second anointing and continuing onward and upward beyond the grave finally makes it to godhood when his skin becomes not just fair and white but translucent, though hopefully his many wives get to keep their tans. Is there any evidence of this going on in the visible portion of the universe, you know, "here is matter unorganized" followed by the process of organizing that matter?

We referred to new missionaries as greenies in my mission. One of the guys I flew down with to Argentina boiled the toilet seat upon arriving at his first location in the field. This might be an example of a greenie blunder. Using the word embarazada(pregnant) to communicate the english embarrassed was another common greenie blunder.

Do new gods make such blunders as well? Can we not see these as evidence that the gospel plan is verily twoo?

Here is an example of one such blunder where a new god has accidentally collided some galaxies together creating a plethora of black holes wasting much matter unorganized. I wonder if he will be demoted for a while after this mistake. In any case it is comforting to know that gods are arranging matter unorganized and the occasional mishap demonstrates that there are new gods coming online and learning the ropes.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Holy Ghost
_Emeritus
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _Holy Ghost »

Philo Sofee wrote:Consiglierie several years ago made a comment that just stuck out to me tonight and which I wish to elaborate on a little bit.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/537 ... ye/?page=1

I think it wise to try to see writings from within the culture of the author.

Problems mount as we try to force our own cultural and scientific understandings on ancient texts.

Jack West (among others) was famous for trying to make Abraham 3 teach modern scientific principles, with less than stellar results. (Pardon the pun.)


This was when Consig was pro Mormon. I myself had used this argument as an apologist. A question arises however once pondering occurs. It was precisely in regarding the scriptures from within the culture of the authors that helped me grasp the truth we are reading mythology, not revealed truth from an objective outside point of view. The claim is that God revealed truths to them, that is, knowledge God had that they couldn't have had in their own cultural myopia they had no choice to exist within. It is from the outside, with a more real knowledge that revelation is supposed to present, otherwise, what's the point of revelation at all? Within a cultural predilection means, by definition the culture does not have the truth, and hence God condescends to impart actual knowledge and truth which has to differ from the culture he is making his revelation to in the first place.

Because our own culture has surpassed the ancients' views, of course problems arise when we compare the two. But the sacred texts we are supposedly comparing are those which God has revelaed outside impartial and objective truth, not an ancient culture's point of view, else what possible sense does revelation make? If God simply told the ancients what they already knew there could have been no possible progress in actual knowledge could there have been?

From our point of view, it has not been God in much of any manner who has advanced our knowledge via revelation, it has been because we have looked, observed, tested, and confirmed or disconfirmed as to what is true or not. It is no surprise at all that our view is vastly different from the ancient's view. But then, why hold onto their view as if it contained objective truth from a God who had the big picture already and was supposedly presenting that to the ancients? He obviously didn't do it very well.

Jack West's problem was the same as today's Mormon apologists who continue in that silly vein of attempting to show the ancient views presaged our own cosmological understanding. They do not correlate. But if revelation from a God who wants us to know reality and truth that lack of correlation can cause serious cognitive dissonance. Hence, ancient revelation did nothing either for the ancients' understanding reality and truth, nor for us, since we have vastly surpassed their view, and surpassed it with seriously incredible evidence. What else is the only honest possible conclusion than that we are reading ancient myth not revelation of actual and real truth? This is why an appeal to any scripture for truth of what reality is, just doesn't hold as much water as I was taught it will.

Just musing out loud for a few minutes.

Won't it be good when the Father and Jesus get up to speed and begin using Power Points rather than ancient stories? The Quorum of the Twelve use them already.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _consiglieri »

Hi, Philo!

Thanks for resurrecting that comment.

I think I would still hold to the idea of viewing texts from within the culture of the author to better understand what is meant.

But I should add that this tacitly admits that the text is being written by the author from within the culture of the author with no outside interference of "real objective truth" being inserted into the text by God.

If one insists on viewing a text as supernaturally importing extra-cultural objective truth, you are right that the culture of the author would not be controlling in ascertaining original intent.

P.S. Still hankering to have you on Radio Free Mormon for an interview!

All in favor may so manifest.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Holy Ghost
_Emeritus
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _Holy Ghost »

consiglieri, do you also then subscribe to the original intent model of constitutional analysis and interpretation?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _consiglieri »

Absolutely!
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Just Understand Scriptures Without Our Own Cultural View

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Consig
Still hankering to have you on Radio Free Mormon for an interview!


I know, I know, bless your heart.......
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
Post Reply