Checkmate for Sic et Non?

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_Gadianton
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Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Gadianton »

Thanks to Tom, I became aware of this article on Sic et NoN. I'm not sure who gets credit for the article, but at any rate, the information contained therein is dangerous to the health of the Sic et Non blog.

And within the same time frame, over at The Mormon Interpreter -- which was recently admitted by the author of both articles to have received its named from Doctor Scratch -- there is another yawn-fest of this variety by the same author:

MI wrote:Scores of studies show that religious faith or religious involvement correlates, on the whole, with superior physical, mental, and emotional health.


The Mopologists must be outliers.

At any rate, this is another essay just like all of his others that paint atheism as the tomb of despair; all there is are atoms in motion, if that. The author refuses to cite an atheist quote that isn't at least one hundred years old. One might think he would target New Atheism, or something that's relevant to stealing away the youth of Mormonism today. One might think such things, but one would be wrong. As usual, the author goes for fool's mate. No wonder this stuff never makes it to JSTOR.

@atheism wrote:You are a temporary, incidental accumulation of particles


HOWEVER: A ray of hope?

One problem with willful ignorance is that education tends to slip in beneath one's awareness. from his article asserting genetic information isn't material:

not sure? wrote:Hubert Yockey used a linguistic analogy to make the point that the information contained in the genetic code, although it is embodied in matter, is not itself material. It cannot be reduced to a chemical or physical property. He points out that the meaning of words or letter sequences, if they have any, is essentially arbitrary. It is determined by the natural language that they are seeking to represent, and is not an intrinsic property of the letters or their arrangement, let alone of the ink with which they may be printed on a page.


Huh. Now let's think about that. I wonder if ole Yocky is the only person to ever entertain such a thought? From the SEP article on eliminative materialism.

SEP wrote:Here we see a tension that runs throughout the writings of many early eliminative materialists. The problem involves a vacillation between two different conditions under which mental concepts and terms are dropped. The first scenario proposes that certain mental concepts will turn out to be empty, with mental state terms referring to nothing that actually exists.


We can stop at option one since the Sic Et Non idea is that the mind will never be found in the random neural firings of the brain. But you have to wonder if ole Yockey was onto something. If the information of the genetic code is embodied in matter, but is not matter itself, is it possible that mental states are embodied in matter, but not matter itself? There are some startling points to consider here. First, as a general response to eliminativism:

SEP wrote:In response to this line of reasoning, many have argued that it is mistake to treat folk psychology as committed to a quasi-linguistic structure to propositional attitudes (Horgan and Graham, 1991; Dennett, 1991). And even for those who find this reading of folk psychology plausible, there is a further difficulty regarding the relevance of neuroscience for determining the status of folk psychology. Some, such as Zenon Pylyshyn (1984), have insisted that just as the physical circuitry of a computer is the wrong level of analysis to look for computational symbol structures, so too, the detailed neurological wiring of the brain is the wrong level of organization to look for structures that might qualify as beliefs.


Yockey's reasoning leaves the author's king unguarded and quickly put into "check," as we entertain the possibility that mind is a very real thing not reducible to neural states yet constituted of matter.

But from whence cometh "checkmate?"

It may seem the author's king is already done in at this point. I might agree, but "mate" is properly understood when observing the column of squares already secured by his opponent's rook, upon which the author's king dare not tread in escape. Allow me to explain. What the "author" is attempting to show by his remarks about genetics is that the information within genetics can't exist in the mindless matter, but was encoded by the intelligent guidance of a creator. Do you see the problem here? Yes, I thought you might, but the author surely doesn't, nor will he, ever. The problem is that by positing the hand of God to account for the information, he denies an underlying ontological substance that might "encapsulate" the information natively. The information itself, isn't a real, non-material thing, it's a programmed, material thing bearing the mark of the programmer. I mean, certainly it makes little sense to think about an "out of genetic experience" by the logic of the DNA's sequencing floating around in it's own ontological life, nor would it make sense to speak of a "creator" as a glorified pineal gland that merges the two self-sustained worlds together.

Goodbye soul. God designed a mind that lives within the matter of a brain and bears his mark, and the bad news is, that to say the brain dies, is to imply that the mind dies with it.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Tom
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Re: Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Tom »

These comments represent well your consistently penetrating insights on this board, Dr. Robbers.

I have two questions for you:

1. Is Interpreter planning to publish Dr. Shermer’s negative statement next Friday?
2. Did you watch the full Shermer-Peterson debate on C-SPAN? https://www.c-span.org/video/?448000-3/ ... ile-reason

I attended FreedomFest this year, as I always do ($695 is a small price to pay for intellectual riches), but I had to skip the headliner debate after I feasted on three made-to-order chocolate lava cakes at the world famous Bacchanal Buffett at Caesars Palace and ended up with some mild stomach distress.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Tom wrote:These comments represent well your consistently penetrating insights on this board, Dr. Robbers.

I have two questions for you:

1. Is Interpreter planning to publish Dr. Shermer’s negative statement next Friday?
2. Did you watch the full Shermer-Peterson debate on C-SPAN? https://www.c-span.org/video/?448000-3/ ... ile-reason

I attended FreedomFest this year, as I always do ($695 is a small price to pay for intellectual riches), but I had to skip the headliner debate after I feasted on three made-to-order chocolate lava cakes at the world famous Bacchanal Buffett at Caesars Palace and ended up with some mild stomach distress.


Holy crap, man. You need to uptick your participation here.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Gadianton
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Gadianton »

Tom wrote:1. Is Interpreter planning to publish Dr. Shermer’s negative statement next Friday?


No. They wouldn't dare.

Thank you Tom, I did not realize that the Interpreter article constituted the Author's opening speech at that debate.

Tom wrote:2. Did you watch the full Shermer-Peterson debate on C-SPAN? https://www.c-span.org/video/?448000-3/ ... ile-reason


I had totally forgotten about the debate. Thank you for the link. I skipped through it, as I don't have a lot of patience for lectures, and it didn't seem you missed out on much by indulging in your lava cakes. Have four next time!

Everyone involved with the debate appeared unable to provide a framework that accounted clearly for both faith and inductive reasoning, but Shermer probably won that point even though he stumbled a bit. DCP's position was mildly clever, making faith abstract such that literally anything could be it's object -- faith is wedded to inductive reasoning. I, for one, would like to see scriptural support for this idea. Where, in the scriptures, was Lucifer or Cain noted for their great faith in achieving the ends of darkness? Where in the scriptures does "faith" apply to anything but the proper things of God? If it were so, why ever be blessed for faith? One would be blessed for the ends of faith, where faith itself, the means, is neutral territory.

So DCP used a typical internet forum definition of faith -- faith as incomplete decision making or positive thinking in the face of doubt -- that actually, has no serious roots in religious thinking anywhere. Unfortunately, there was quite a bit of buy-in by the rest of the crowd. So kudos to DCP for tricking them. And he was quick to call Shermer out. Shermer offered as his definition of faith, a Fideist definition (he did not use that term). Perhaps Shermer was ambitious to be so narrow about it, but at least it was a real definition of faith:

wiki wrote:...faith is independent of reason, or that reason and faith are hostile to each other...


So Shermer was saying by this definition, the topic of the debate is kind of a sham because by definition faith and reason are hostile. DCP insisted that because the two things are not identical doesn't mean that they can't co-exist and that Shermer misunderstood the question of the debate. But if fideism is correct, then the question of the debate is misplaced. At any rate, a huge problem for debates like this is nailing down terminology, so they both get a free pass here.

It is ironic that DCP castigated Shermer for this definition since: "Historically, fideism is most commonly ascribed to four philosophers: Pascal, Kierkegaard, William James, and Wittgenstein."

Yet, both Pascal and James are DCP's two primary sources in his talk to justify the compatibility of faith and reason. Pragmatists, just so that he's aware, don't limit their pragmatism to religion, they are just as serious if not more serious about encompassing science. Unfortunately, skeptic groups are renowned for their disinterest in philosophy and the humanities, and so they just don't have the tools to respond properly.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Gadianton »

Once again, the staff over at Sic Et Non is mystified by the problem of consciousness; consciousness can't be reduced to neurons:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... sness.html

I know the primary staff writer isn't exactly in the market for a way out of the problem, but should he get curious, the solution is here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... erial.html
Hubert Yockey used a linguistic analogy to make the point that the information contained in the genetic code, although it is embodied in matter, is not itself material


a linguistic analogy to make the point that consciousness contained in the brain, although it is embodied in matter, is not itself material.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Checkmate for Sic et Non?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I spent the better part of an hour watching an Ancient Aliens episode this morning. It dealt with AI and the implications it has for humanity and our inevitable merging of tech with our bodies, and, perhaps, our transformation to silicon-based lifeforms so we can explore the universe. Now, I admit Ancient Aliens is silly, but this is the first episode that caught my attention and then kept it. One of the more interesting quotes from the program came from Michio Kaku, who suggested that our souls are really the information we store in our brains in the form of collective memories and our ability to process information.

It was a profound insight. In case your curiosity was piqued here are some videos Professor Kaku has uploaded to his website:

http://mkaku.org/home/tag/artificial-intelligence/

What's relevant to me is while Mr. Peterson frets over Stalinist-Mormon architectural parallels, and Mike Griffith complains that men shouldn't diddle themselves, real philosophy, real science, men of true learning are tackling real questions about our nature, our brains, our 'souls', and how we move forward in this universe.

I got more out of one hour of Ancient Aliens than the combined posting history of Dan Peterson.

Period.

And that's a problem for BYU, the Deseret News, and anyone that gives voice to people like him. They're wasting everyone's time and they're subsequently diminishing their status as legitimate organizations that are purportedly there to educate us.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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