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 Post subject: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entrance
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Dr. Scratch's recent thread highlighted many of Mormonism's doctrinal absurdities. This reminded me of an exchange I had with my good IRL friend Sanctorian.

Sanctorian once told me that he has an ironclad, foolproof way into the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormon Doctrine. I was a little skeptical, but once he told me I couldn't find any fault with his logic.

Despite resigning his membership, Sanctorian told me that if the Church is true after all, he only has accept the Gospel in the Spirit World, repent and he is on a one-way train ride to the Celestial Kingdom.

I would like to challenge any apologist to try and dispute Sanctorian's Loophole. It can't be done using Mormon Doctrine. It's brilliant!

All of this begs the question that if Mormonism is true wouldn't it be better to resign your membership, give yourself a 10% raise and get a fresh start in the Spirit World by accepting the Gospel?

TK Smoothies and Sanctorian's Loophole. Isn't Mormon Doctrine great.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
All of this begs the question that if Mormonism is true wouldn't it be better to resign your membership, give yourself a 10% raise and get a fresh start in the Spirit World by accepting the Gospel?

If Mormonism is true, it would be better to have never heard about it in this lifetime. Those are the people who have it made and get a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:24 pm 
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cwald wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
All of this begs the question that if Mormonism is true wouldn't it be better to resign your membership, give yourself a 10% raise and get a fresh start in the Spirit World by accepting the Gospel?

If Mormonism is true, it would be better to have never heard about it in this lifetime. Those are the people who have it made and get a free pass to the Celestial Kingdom.

Of course, that is just someone's opinion...... :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Of course, that is just someone's opinion...... :biggrin:

The Holy Ghost confirmed it to me, so now it is no longer an opinion. It is fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Not only is this a loophole, it's a loophole 70 times 7.

"18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

The thing about Mormon God is He created the ultimate Mulligan. The doctrine of denying the holy ghost is the only limiting factor and since none on Earth has a sure knowledge of the holy ghost, God can, like Thanos snapping his fingers with the infinity gauntlet, make things right. In fact, I would argue that's the beautiful part of Mormon theology. It's just that Mormons get it wrong when they state "you won't want to be in the presence of God because of your knowledge of your sinful life."

To that I say, "hell ya I'll be there high fiving angels and stuff. His own eternal plan grants me access and I got to live a cool life to boot."

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Sanctorian once told me that he has an ironclad, foolproof way into the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormon Doctrine.

Quote:
D&C Section 88:22
For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

Isn't this Mormon Doctrine?

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:53 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:

Sanctorian once told me that he has an ironclad, foolproof way into the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormon Doctrine.


Quote:
D&C Section 88:22
For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.


Isn't this Mormon Doctrine?

Regards,
MG


Who is to say if one cannot abide the law now that in some future time they will be. Most of what I was taught is that even now no one is living all the celestial laws. The church also does not have a position on whether people will be able to move from lower kingdoms to higher ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:01 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:

Sanctorian once told me that he has an ironclad, foolproof way into the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormon Doctrine.


Quote:
D&C Section 88:22
For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.


Isn't this Mormon Doctrine?

Regards,
MG


Good thing I have eternity to figure out how to live it right? God loves us so much he gave us an unlimited play clock to figure it out. Mormon God is the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:
Good thing I have eternity to figure out how to live it right? God loves us so much he gave us an unlimited play clock to figure it out. Mormon God is the best.


Quote:
...people also keep their character when they enter the spirit world. Realistically, someone who spent their entire life rejecting Jesus Christ and His gospel will probably not accept His gospel in the spirit world. Death does not change our natures. When a wicked person like this enters the spirit world, the guilt and pain of recognizing his or her own distance from God is tremendous. As the Book of Mormon says, "The demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever" (Mosiah 2:38). "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world" (Alma 34:34).

Therefore, while we can always hope for others who have died, since we do not know their hearts, it is foolish for us to reject the gospel now and plan to accept it in the spirit world. The message of prophets is and always has been to repent and turn to Jesus Christ now. President Henry B. Eyring, one of the apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon Church) wrote a wonderful talk on the subject called "This Day." Click here to read it.

https://www.LDS.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng

Christ has said that those who refuse to repent and come unto Him are as if there were no atonement made. Therefore, they must suffer for their own sins:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18).
https://www.mormonwiki.com/Spirit_Prison


Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:28 pm 
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The cut and paste king has spoken. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:34 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

Christ has said that those who refuse to repent and come unto Him are as if there were no atonement made. Therefore, they must suffer for their own sins:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18).
https://www.mormonwiki.com/Spirit_Prison

Regards,
MG


Quote:
Repentance - A change that takes place in the heart and in the way of thinking, which means adopting a new attitude regarding God, as for oneself and as regards life in general. Repentance implies that the person turns away from sin and surrenders his heart and will to God, submitting to the commandments and desires of the Father and abandoning sin. True repentance is born of love for the Lord and sincere desire to obey His commandments. Every person responsible for their actions has sinned in some way and must repent in order to progress toward salvation. Our repentance becomes effective and is accepted by God only through the atonement of Jesus Christ.


Thanks Jesus! And when I meet God face to face in the afterlife, I will repent and have a sincere desire to obey his rules. I don't see anything you have quoted that would preclude that.

Regards,
Sanctorian

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Last edited by Sanctorian on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 pm 
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grindael wrote:
The cut and paste king has spoken.


Yes he has. You got that right...I guess?

I think Sanctorian's Loophole can be challenged. Others have done so in great detail. Cut and paste does the job. I am not ashamed to say that I am willing to submit to others who are greater and more articulate than I am in explaining the doctrines and/or teachings of the CofJCofLDS.

And it saves a LOT of time. :smile: Am I really the "king" of cut and paste? I hadn't really considered that.

I just hope that people will actually read the cut and paste and see that Sanctorian's hopes are based upon some shaky presuppositions/foundations. I wish him well, though. If he thinks he can fast track himself into the CK after rejecting the gospel in this life...well, good luck with that.

Regards,
MG


Last edited by mentalgymnast on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:

Thanks Jesus! And when I meet God face to face in the afterlife, I will repent and have a sincere desire to obey his rules. I don't see anything you have quoted that would preclude that.

Regards,
Sanctorian


Like I said, good luck with that.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:40 pm 
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It makes as much sense as anything else taught in Mormonism. Jealous you didn't think of it?

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:42 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Jealous you didn't think of it?


Not at all. It doesn't make sense to me. Almost like deathbed repentance. I never thought that had much going for it.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:43 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Sanctorian wrote:

Thanks Jesus! And when I meet God face to face in the afterlife, I will repent and have a sincere desire to obey his rules. I don't see anything you have quoted that would preclude that.

Regards,
Sanctorian


Like I said, good luck with that.

Regards,
MG


I don't need luck. It's doctrine. I did not have a sure knowledge of the holy ghost, my temple work will surely be done again when I'm dead, and Jesus died so that all men may return to God. What does luck have to do with?

Regards,
Sanctorian

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 pm 
Dragon
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Well, it worked for the thief on the cross. And this,
Quote:
For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.


Applies to EVERYONE on earth, cause no one can abide the law of a celestial kingdom on earth, according to Mormon Doctrine. So again, repentance in the Spirit World is a viable option.

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trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:
...Jesus died so that all men may return to God...


To be judged and rewarded on conditions of repentance and obedience to God's commandments. Men will be judged by their works in the flesh.

Even the devils believe.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:47 pm 
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Quote:
A man who has had his mind opened to the operation of the Priesthood of the Son of God–who understands anything of the government of heaven, must understand that finite beings are not capable of receiving and abiding the celestial law in its fulness. When can you abide a celestial law? When you become a celestial being, and never until then. (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel by John A. Widtsoe [1954], p.95)

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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Any more gems of wisdom you wish to impart that you don't understand?

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Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanctorian's Loophole Guarantees Celestial Kingdom Entra
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:
I don't need luck. It's doctrine. I did not have a sure knowledge of the holy ghost, my temple work will surely be done again when I'm dead, and Jesus died so that all men may return to God. What does luck have to do with?

Regards,
Sanctorian


Exactly. I don't know why Mormon Doctrine is so upsetting to mentalgymnast. I guess mentalgymnast doesn't have a very strong testimony of the Gospel.

Maybe mentalgymnast is just angry that Sanctorian will not have a TK Smoothie because of the Sanctorian Loophole?


Quote:
There will be very few, if any in the spirit world who will not accept the gospel.
President Wilford Woodruff, General Conference, April 1894

Quote:
When the gospel is preached to the spirits in prison, the success attending that preaching will be far greater than that attending the preaching of our Elders in this life. I believe there will be a very few indeed of those spirits who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable.
President Lorenzo Snow (Millennial Star 56:50)

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Last edited by Everybody Wang Chung on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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