Book of Mormon archeology

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Uther
_Emeritus
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am

Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Uther »

Ever so often there pops up an article in the media about a discovery of some ancient remains of a long lost people, and a few days later there is usually a post on exmormon reddit sharing the article while pointing to the lack of evidence with respect to Book of Mormon archeology.

One thought that keeps reoccuring is that there is at least one object that is probably the easiest to locate among the Book of Mormon artifacts. This artifact is the object that Joseph Smith jr used to postulate being the golden plates.

We do have a time window of the translation process and of the witness observations, and a limited geography where it all took place. And we do have a relevant number of people claiming to have observed an object covered with cloth or placed in a box.

Assuming the object was not just "a rock of greenish cast", or "a bag of sand", but that Joseph Smith jr actually managed over time to produce an object with at least some engraved metal plates on top of a "sealed portion" as suggested by Dan Vogel, we have a real and tangible Book of Mormon artifact that probably still exists. (assuming that Joseph Smith jr didn't physically melt down the object).

While there are discrepancies between Joseph Smith jrs description of the timeline and his mothers description (Scot Facer Proctor and Maurine Jensen Proctor editors, The Revised and Enhanced History of Joseph Smith By His Mother, Bookcraft, 1996), the first two of the 3 witnesses see the Book of Mormon in "visions" around Friday, June 26, 1829 near the Whitmer home in Fayette NY. According to Lucy, they leave the house in the morning, went to a grove not so far from the house, and returned in the late afternoon.

My first question is related to if anyone knows about reliable witness observations of the plate artifact in the Withmer home? I don't think that Joseph Smith jr needed the plate artifact for the "vision" experienced by the 3 witnesses.

Then Joseph Smith jr travels from Fayette to the Smith family home in Manchester NY (pondering or reconnoitering where to dispose of the plate artifact while traveling?) Is this where he keeps the plate artifact, or does he bring it with him? On Sunday, June 28, 1829, the eight witnesses view and handle the plate artifact near the Smith family home.

Not long after this, Joseph Smith jr claims that Moroni took the plates back.

I think that Joseph Smith jr hid the plates in a location where he expected people never to find them. Being a treasure hunter I think that he wouldn't have dug them down, as he might fear that someone could recover them by digging. And since the artifact probably had a curious look, I don't think he trusted to give the object to someone else for destruction.

I think the most probable action was to dump the object in a deep spot in a body of water. Anyone have another suggestion of a good way to get rid of a metal object? This spot had to be known to him previously, and had to be within reasonable distance to the Smith family home.

Maby the subcouncious thought of the hiding place of the Book of Mormon artifact motivated him to his later musings about Satan having dominion over the waters?

Anyways, this artifact has a much higher probability of having been real than any other artifact related to the Book of Mormon (save the seer stones). And accounting for underwater metal decay between 1829 and 2018, it is a high probability that this object still exists.

Could it be located, it would be a wooden spike to the chest of the vampire of Mormonism.
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _I have a question »

As I understand it, the Church has acquired all the relevant property and refuses to excavate, or to allow research excavation by others. I suspect they already know what they’d find...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Grudunza
_Emeritus
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Grudunza »

I agree that if there were fabricated plates, then they were probably thrown into a pond or lake, in which case, they could have completely corroded away by now (likely being cheap tin). My one hesitation about that is the “sealed portion.” Maybe they were hidden away with the understanding that he might need them again some day for Book of Mormon part 2.
http://www.WeirdAlma.com
Weird Alma - Prophet of the New Disputation
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _DarkHelmet »

It would be interesting to see the apologists scramble if Joseph Smith's gold plate prop was ever found. I have no doubt that they would come up with some sort of an apologetic defense that would keep the faithful paying their tithes and sitting in the pews every sunday. They would probably say Joseph Smith and/or his scribes built a replica of the real gold plates for the fun of it, or they could always go with the catalyst theory.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Uther
_Emeritus
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Uther »

I have a question wrote:As I understand it, the Church has acquired all the relevant property and refuses to excavate, or to allow research excavation by others. I suspect they already know what they’d find...


Yes, but I doubt that Joseph Smith jr dumped the plate artifact in a pond on the Smith property.
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Runtu »

I know there's at least one account saying that Joseph confessed that the window box that supposedly contained the plates actually held a bag of white sand. I'd look it up, but kind of busy.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Themis »

Runtu wrote:I know there's at least one account saying that Joseph confessed that the window box that supposedly contained the plates actually held a bag of white sand. I'd look it up, but kind of busy.


You can go all out and make a prop like the kinder-hook plates or go the other way and use everyday ordinary items. That way if someone comes across it later they will not connect it to anything.
42
_Uther
_Emeritus
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Uther »

Runtu wrote:I know there's at least one account saying that Joseph confessed that the window box that supposedly contained the plates actually held a bag of white sand. I'd look it up, but kind of busy.


The quote was made by Peter Ingersoll and is found in the book "Mormonism Unvailed" (E.D Howe, pp 235-236, 1834).

I think this only refers to the initial homecoming with "the plates" and not the later object that he finally presented to the eight witnesses.
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
_slskipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:39 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _slskipper »

I know! I know! Maybe if there were some prophet or something who could ask God where Zarahemla was!!

Just sayin'...
_Uther
_Emeritus
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am

Re: Book of Mormon archeology

Post by _Uther »

slskipper wrote:I know! I know! Maybe if there were some prophet or something who could ask God where Zarahemla was!!

Just sayin''...


I think the pert reply would be something along "that is not pertinent to your salvation".
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
Post Reply