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 Post subject: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:25 pm 
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A very insightful comment from a man who generated insights the way a Fourth of July sparkler generates sparks:

“But the new rebel is a skeptic, and will not entirely trust anything. He has no loyalty; therefore he can never be really a revolutionist. And the fact that he doubts everything really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind; and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces, but the doctrine by which he denounces it. . . . As a politician, he will cry out that war is a waste of life, and then, as a philosopher, that all life is waste of time. A Russian pessimist will denounce a policeman for killing a peasant, and then prove by the highest philosophical principles that the peasant ought to have killed himself. . . . The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling against everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything.”

G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy


I wonder if Peterson understands that Chesterton is a Catholic apologia piece of human flesh, and the underlying philosophy here is ALL the other churches (Yeah, yours too Dr. Peterson) are in rebellion, and it ought to stop. ALL need to come back home and humbly submit to the only actual authoritah in existence, namely Catholicism. THAT is Chesterton's meaning. I wonder if Peterson grasps this actually...

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:49 pm 
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I always find these complaints about intellectual flexibility humorous. It is as though being an inflexible blockhead is some kind of virtue. People who are shocked when someone seems to take a different position depending on the situation are tedious dunderheads, the kind of barbaric louts and tyrants who crucify philosophers and mystics.

It is particularly humorous to see DCP promoting this, as Joseph Smith had a special fondness for contradicting himself just to test his followers. Picture Smith preaching about the Word of Wisdom and then riding through town smoking a cigar. Preaching monogamy as he married dozens of women.

The big difference here is that such folk bless and praise the tyrant who contradicts himself capriciously, but heaven forfend if anyone beneath him should disturb the cart. Then out come the nooses.


Last edited by Kishkumen on Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:18 am 
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I'm not gonna look that up, I can only stomach so much of that at a time. But I might have had a part in that post. It was yesterday I think when we went back and forth, me calling for change when the need is obvious, and him insisting that piety demands that we wait for leaders to decide what is right.

I get it, they are technically in charge of the church, but I like putting the objections to the immoral system on the record, so to speak.


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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:05 am 
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C S was influenced in his pathway to Christianity by Chesterton.. It seems Mormons the First Things crowd (Father Neuhaus) Touchstone all lavish praise on these men.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:41 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
. . . me calling for change when the need is obvious, and him insisting that piety demands that we wait for leaders to decide what is right.

I get it, they are technically in charge of the church, but I like putting the objections to the immoral system on the record, so to speak.


Piety demands? Balderdash! Practicality may demand but piety most certainly not. Of the many flaws in the LDS system, the worship of authority is one of the worst. I understand that that’s kinda how things are in LDSism, and it is one reason I want little to do with the LDS Church. Priesthood is an opportunity for people to serve and make an offering to God. It is not a system whereby men are petty tyrants who command the unthinking obedience of the flock.

It’s a shame, given when and how Mormonism started, that Joseph Smith then initiated a process that led to this sad state of affairs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:18 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
. . . me calling for change when the need is obvious, and him insisting that piety demands that we wait for leaders to decide what is right.

I get it, they are technically in charge of the church, but I like putting the objections to the immoral system on the record, so to speak.


Piety demands? Balderdash! Practicality may demand but piety most certainly not. Of the many flaws in the LDS system, the worship of authority is one of the worst. I understand that that’s kinda how things are in LDSism, and it is one reason I want little to do with the LDS Church. Priesthood is an opportunity for people to serve and make an offering to God. It is not a system whereby men are petty tyrants who command the unthinking obedience of the flock.

It’s a shame, given when and how Mormonism started, that Joseph Smith then initiated a process that led to this sad state of affairs.


That's it, it's practicality. Gotta feed the beast.

I'd really love to see, within the church more often, members openly saying that if they are going to forgive the church its flaws, they won't feel obligated to pretend it's perfect or that it has some totalitarian claim on their lives. This would imo be a much healthier place for those within.


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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:11 am 
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I quite like Chesterton, actually.

Here is another good quote for Dr Peterson to consider:

Quote:
The basic Mormon belief is one that comes out of the morning of the earth, from the most primitive and even infantile attitude. Their chief dogma is that God is material, not that He was materialized once, as all Christians believe; nor that He is materialized specially, as all Catholics believe; but that He was materially embodied from all time; that He has a local habitation as well as a name. Under the influence of this barbaric but violently vivid conception, these people crossed a great desert with their guns and oxen, patiently, persistently, and courageously, as if they were following a vast and visible giant who was striding across the plains. In other words this strange sect, by soaking itself solely in the Hebrew Scriptures, had really managed to reproduce the atmosphere of those Scriptures as they are felt by Hebrews rather than by Christians. A number of dull, earnest, ignorant, black-coated men with chimney-pot hats, chin beards or mutton-chop whiskers, managed to reproduce in their own souls the richness and the peril of an ancient Oriental experience. If we think from this end we may possibly guess how it was that they added polygamy.


Chesterton is being a bit naughty here with his Orientalist tropes, but it's still a nice passage.


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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Johannes wrote:
I quite like Chesterton, actually.

Here is another good quote for Dr Peterson to consider:

Quote:
The basic Mormon belief is one that comes out of the morning of the earth, from the most primitive and even infantile attitude. Their chief dogma is that God is material, not that He was materialized once, as all Christians believe; nor that He is materialized specially, as all Catholics believe; but that He was materially embodied from all time; that He has a local habitation as well as a name. Under the influence of this barbaric but violently vivid conception, these people crossed a great desert with their guns and oxen, patiently, persistently, and courageously, as if they were following a vast and visible giant who was striding across the plains. In other words this strange sect, by soaking itself solely in the Hebrew Scriptures, had really managed to reproduce the atmosphere of those Scriptures as they are felt by Hebrews rather than by Christians. A number of dull, earnest, ignorant, black-coated men with chimney-pot hats, chin beards or mutton-chop whiskers, managed to reproduce in their own souls the richness and the peril of an ancient Oriental experience. If we think from this end we may possibly guess how it was that they added polygamy.


Chesterton is being a bit naughty here with his Orientalist tropes, but it's still a nice passage.

A nice passage, indeed. These little nuggets that pop up here from time to time are what keep one coming back now and then, just to check in, even after interest in Mormonism itself has waned.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:02 pm 
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DrW wrote:
A nice passage, indeed. These little nuggets that pop up here from time to time are what keep one coming back now and then, just to check in, even after interest in Mormonism itself has waned.

Thanks.


Hey, DrW! Good to see you! I hope you're doing well.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:19 pm 
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My beef is not so much with Chesterton as the use made of his words.


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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Johannes wrote:
I quite like Chesterton, actually.

Here is another good quote for Dr Peterson to consider:

Quote:
The basic Mormon belief is one that comes out of the morning of the earth, from the most primitive and even infantile attitude. Their chief dogma is that God is material, not that He was materialized once, as all Christians believe; nor that He is materialized specially, as all Catholics believe; but that He was materially embodied from all time; that He has a local habitation as well as a name. Under the influence of this barbaric but violently vivid conception, these people crossed a great desert with their guns and oxen, patiently, persistently, and courageously, as if they were following a vast and visible giant who was striding across the plains. In other words this strange sect, by soaking itself solely in the Hebrew Scriptures, had really managed to reproduce the atmosphere of those Scriptures as they are felt by Hebrews rather than by Christians. A number of dull, earnest, ignorant, black-coated men with chimney-pot hats, chin beards or mutton-chop whiskers, managed to reproduce in their own souls the richness and the peril of an ancient Oriental experience. If we think from this end we may possibly guess how it was that they added polygamy.


Chesterton is being a bit naughty here with his Orientalist tropes, but it's still a nice passage.



Well played, Johannes. Clearly, Chesterton is an anti-Mormon, so why is Dr. Peterson cherry-picking quotes from him? Why isn't he warning readers to avoid his work? The answer seems obvious: DCP loves reading anti-Mormon literature; he loves to appear smart and well-read; he also thinks that the bulk of his readership is a bunch of morons, so why not quote from an anti-Mormon author like Chesterton? It ticks off all the boxes with in one fell swoop.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Quote:
If we think from this end we may possibly guess how it was that they added polygamy.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Sic et Non needs a good song to sing against the rebels.

Oh come tell me Elder Smoot,
"Tell me why you hurry so?
Hush my brother, hush and listen"
Of tales from long ago
I bear orders from Dr. Peterson
"Get you ready quick and soon
For white shirt and ties must be together
By the rising of ex-Mormons"

"Oh come tell me Elder Smoot
Where the gath'rin is to be?
At the old spot by the Institute
Quite well-known to you and me
One more word for signal token
Singing Prophets praises true
With your Quad case on your shoulder
By the rising of ex-Mormons
By the rising of ex-Mormons

With your Quad case on your shoulder
By the rising of ex-Mormons"

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
My beef is not so much with Chesterton as the use made of his words.


Agreed entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: Sic et non rebelling against rebellion - lol!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:26 am 
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Darth Peterson - I can sense the rebel alliance is close to our Death Star. What is thy bidding my master?

Emperor - Has the mutagen proven effective?

Darth Peterson - It has my master.

Emperor - Then release the Hamblin!

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