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 Post subject: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:41 pm 
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I was actually browsing various websites, and saw a discussion where Clark Gobel jumped in and more or less said BAH! I agree, but for a different reason. Just honestly think about it, if a horse (bones) is genuinely found that actually does have the correct time frame, so what? This cannot be used in any manner to justify anything said or done in the BofM as being a historic reality. It's a rather just dumb argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:25 am 
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Bad guy in Jail: Who was that masked apologist?

Law enforcement officer: I don't know. I've heard him called Dr. Daniel C. Peterson.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:36 am 
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Ill get this in before someone else does:

Once again the apologist is beating a dead tapir.......

Just doesn't quite work, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:21 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
Ill get this in before someone else does:

Once again the apologist is beating a dead tapir.......

Just doesn't quite work, sorry.

Exactly.

Mormon apologetics is a pretty lazy pastime - B of M mentions horses, science proves there weren’t any horses, find an animal with four legs that did exist at the time, suggest that’s what the B of M means. Job done. And it works because the audience is a willing participant in the subterfuge.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:23 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I was actually browsing various websites, and saw a discussion where Clark Gobel jumped in and more or less said BAH! I agree, but for a different reason. Just honestly think about it, if a horse (bones) is genuinely found that actually does have the correct time frame, so what? This cannot be used in any manner to justify anything said or done in the BofM as being a historic reality. It's a rather just dumb argument.


Just from going from your quote he is right. Finding horse bones during claimed Book of Mormon times cannot be used to support Book of Mormon historicity. What it does do is gets rid of one of the major anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Now archaeological work has been going on for over a century and more of it is being done today then in the past and horses are yet to show up. If one knows the science a little they will understand that there is almost no chance of horses existing during Book of Mormon time frames for various reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:12 am 
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Themis wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
I was actually browsing various websites, and saw a discussion where Clark Gobel jumped in and more or less said BAH! I agree, but for a different reason. Just honestly think about it, if a horse (bones) is genuinely found that actually does have the correct time frame, so what? This cannot be used in any manner to justify anything said or done in the BofM as being a historic reality. It's a rather just dumb argument.

Just from going from your quote he is right. Finding horse bones during claimed Book of Mormon times cannot be used to support Book of Mormon historicity. What it does do is gets rid of one of the major anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Now archaeological work has been going on for over a century and more of it is being done today then in the past and horses are yet to show up. If one knows the science a little they will understand that there is almost no chance of horses existing during Book of Mormon time frames for various reasons.

“Almost no chance” is the Book Of Mormon geography.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:17 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
Mormon apologetics is a pretty lazy pastime - B of M mentions horses, science proves there weren’t any horses, find an animal with four legs that did exist at the time, suggest that’s what the B of M means. Job done. And it works because the audience is a willing participant in the subterfuge.

It's interesting how the word "Horse" got into the Book of Mormon because its actual animal was unknown to Joseph Smith, but that never stopped God from having Joseph write down "Curelom" and "Cumom," whose actual animals were unknown to Joseph Smith, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
It's interesting how the word "Horse" got into the Book of Mormon because its actual animal was unknown to Joseph Smith, but that never stopped God from having Joseph write down "Curelom" and "Cumom," whose actual animals were unknown to Joseph Smith, too.


That's exactly what goes through my mind every time this subject is brought up. The Book of Mormon has all kinds of exotic names. J. Smith (flim-flam man) made up numerous names for animals, places, and even the Nephite money system. As far as J. Smith was concerned a curelom was a curelom and a horse was a horse, of course. :cool:

J. Smith had no compunction with regards to making up exotic names to describe all kinds of things. So many made up names! The Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham contain countless made up names unless of course you're dealing with the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 where men dress up like women to showcase the latest Egyptian clothing fashions.

In conclusion, as far as J Smith was concerned, a horse was a horse, just like a woman is a woman and a man is a man.

L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:01 pm 
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You can be sure that Joseph Smith knew what a horse was. He lived among horses and gallantly rode them among his adoring fans. When Smith mentioned horses in the Book of Mormon he was referring to the same animal in which he sat proudly as he led the saints to their supposed victory.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Here is an honest rendition of a TBM offering his testimony of the Book of Mormon -- absent the apologetic trickery of those who defend the faith in the face of science.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Book of Mormon wrote:
And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots


Bronze statue of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum riding out of Nauvoo toward Carthage

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Can anyone doubt that Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum loved horses? I think they did. Sadly, today, LDS apologists belittle the prophet's natural love for horses.

So sad, and shameful.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Book of Mormon wrote:
And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.


BEASTS OF EVERY KIND AND THEN SOME:

Cow

Ox

Ass

Horse

Goats

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Image

A horse is a horse of course of course

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:42 pm 
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A horse.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Book of Mormon wrote:
Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots


Jesus confused the Nephites by mentioning an animal in which they had never heard or seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Apologists have suggested in the Book of Mormon that:

1. Sheep meant llamas.
2. Cattle meant either mountain goats, llamas, or the ancestor of the American bison.
3. Goats referred to native Mesoamerican brocket deer.
4. Swine referred to peccaries.
5. Wheat and barley referred to Hordeum pusillum.
6. Silk referred to the hair of rabbit's bellies or possibly pods from the ceiba tree.
7. Chariot may refer to a non-wheeled vehicle.
8. Steel refers to a hardened metal other than iron.
9. Swords referred to the macuahuitl club with obsidian blades.
10. Cimiters (scimitars) may have referred to some sort of knife.

So, did Joseph Smith mean horse or perhaps the closest thing existing in the Americas which is the valiant tapir? As Dr. Peterson has pointed out, the hippopotamus is alternately known as the "river horse" and taxonomically the tapir is related to both horses and rhinos.

Look, it is hard being an apologist and you should not expect them to just pull a curelom out of their hat.

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:57 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Chariot may refer to a non-wheeled vehicle.


That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Do men have balls? Do women have boobs?

Castrate a chariot? Rip the wheels off the axle and take it for a spin.

Daniel Peterson is the dumbest school teacher in the state of Utard. He don't deserve a diploma. He gets a grade F. as in flunky not kcuf spelled backwards.

Jesus Christ

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 Post subject: Re: Horse in Pre-Columbia America? (yep, Again)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Daniel Peterson is a r____ r____

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F

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