Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
You cannot say anything about the boy who cried wolf because they just do not get it, and if you do a thorough review they won't read it or even care, they are just sitting back and letting you tire yourself out. So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.


Dean Robbers--

You are, of course, correct. As always. I am curious about your last observation, though:

"it doesn't hurt them one way or another."

It seems to me that there is a learning opportunity here: a chance for the faculty and students of Cassius to learn at the feet of the Dean. What, to your mind, constitutes "hurt" for the Mopologists?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
DCP wrote:I don't like to ban people


I beg to differ:

Image


Mr. Stak:

I think it's unfortunate you were banned. Still, were you ever able to somehow obtain an answer to your question?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Gad
You cannot say anything about the boy who cried wolf because they just do not get it, and if you do a thorough review they won't read it or even care, they are just sitting back and letting you tire yourself out. So in that sense, yeah, they want you to read it because it is a waste of your time and it doesn't hurt them one way or another.


An excellent summary. I actually DID tire myself out, but not in the way the Mopologists were hoping. Now it just doesn't really matter all that much what they say or think, yet in some respects it does, and periodically, I find myself feeling I need to respond to some of their stuff. But life is so adventurous and interesting now that I don't feel guilted into spending every waking and sleeping moment attempting to make sense and defend the nonsense of Mormonism. I am astounded how much more broad, interesting, and fun it all is!
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Gadianton
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote: What, to your mind, constitutes "hurt" for the Mopologists?


A challenging question, professor. Well, I think in this case we could contrast evolution with the now defunct LTG theory. Sure, the apologists hate the theory of evolution, but they are a little afraid that it's true. In fact, I've never seen them outright say evolution is false, and there have been several statements of the "I don't reject it" variety. They see an argument they find convincing or maybe just run across a quote from a believing Phd and trumpet it, but they tend to forget the people reading what they write weren't born yesterday and their own science educations aren't that great, and so they get owned. And then it's "Oh, I wasn't saying I for sure agreed with that creationist, I just like to see both sides of the story". But if they can get you to waste dozens of hours reading the book and showing them every little thing that's wrong while they kick back and relax, before they'll back pedal, then in a way, they win.

But it's not this way with the LTG theory. There's no back pedaling here, as Sorenson's testimony on MST once said, it either happened in Mesoamerica or it didn't happen; meaning, the book is false and the Church is false. So yea, when a guy like Jenkins takes them to task on evidence, that seems to have stung, and more than a little bit. But, professor, the human psyche is a complex matter, and the psyche of an apologist I imagine is more complex than the average person's. Above, I said that the apologists are a little afraid that evolution is true, is not that also true of the LGT? I think it has to be. I mean, do you get defensive if someone says the sky is purple? But with the LTG there's no way to hedge the bet, they're all in. So it's a real sensitive matter fueled by decades of pent-up denial.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_grindael
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _grindael »

I was speaking to a friend the other day, and this friend is a member of an exclusive group, who are here in secret and do not let many know about themselves. Well, it seems that on their journey to this place they got a few things wrong, in tapping into our broadcasts they were fascinated by the "Lord of the Rings" and mistook this fantasy as real earth history. I have tried to dissuade my friend of this notion, but there is a faction of this group that cling to the belief that Middle Earth actually exists and that they can discover archaeological evidence that will back up their belief. But many in their own camp have been hammering them with the actual evidence that it's all a fantasy, but some (like my friend) feel that Tolkien was some kind of prophet who discovered the ancient languages of the Eldar and the Dwarves, and translated their ancient records, and that the Vala Oromë are actual gods, but they are simply hidden and want them to have faith in them and at some future time will reveal themselves. They also feel that the Eldar and the Dwarves were such a small group of people, that there is just so little evidence of their existence that it will remain almost impossible to find any to vindicate their belief. But they claim that they will ultimately find it.

This belief by some of them (my friend included) has caused this friend to become very belligerent when we do converse, and now refuses to discuss the matter with me at all, claiming that I am an Anti-Tolkien and that it is pointless to speak with me anymore. I'm not sure where it's all going, but it seems that this faction won't back down and some kind of civil war between them is brewing. If my friend ever does contact me again, I'll be sure to inform you how it all turns out.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Puck Mendelssohn
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Puck Mendelssohn »

Kishkumen wrote:Based on the quoted book review, one is left to wonder what it was DCP saw in this book and why. It looks to be a fraudulent work of pseudo-scholarship detectable by anyone who exercises a modicum of caution and common sense.


Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.
_lostindc
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _lostindc »

Puck Mendelssohn wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:Based on the quoted book review, one is left to wonder what it was DCP saw in this book and why. It looks to be a fraudulent work of pseudo-scholarship detectable by anyone who exercises a modicum of caution and common sense.


Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.


I have nothing to add except, welcome to the board.
2019 = #100,000missionariesstrong
_Kishkumen
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _Kishkumen »

Puck Mendelssohn wrote:Good question. I'm the writer of that quoted book review, and I happened to bump into this discussion when it came up in a Google search on my reviews. Fascinating community you have here!

I don't know much about the prevalence of creationism among Mormons. I have an older brother who is a Mormon, and while I don't think he bothers to think about these things much at all, he certainly has expressed at least some sympathy for the creationists when the topic has come up.

Right now there is a bit of a culture-war thing going on and it seems very clear that some people want to enlist the religious in an anti-science crusade. It's being fairly artfully done. Most people, if they recognize that that the motivation for science denialism in a particular case is PRIMARILY religion, will be suspicious of it, so these people, the Discovery Institute in particular, have been seeking to sort of "flip the script." As flipped, the script reads: "Materialism is an atheistic philosophy. Science, as understood through the lens of materialism, is not a search to understand the world so much as it is a mission to obliterate God and turn our children into atheists. But to prop up this materialistic worldview, the scientists are lying; they are ignoring the TRUE science, which points to God."

So, if that's your script, what you have to do is make people think that this alternative "true" science really does exist, and that it really is scientific, and that it does indeed point toward a God, or at least toward the possibility of one. The Intelligent Design project is basically that: attempting to take creationism, strip it of its overtly religious clothing, dress it up as a legitimate scientific enterprise, and then wail and rend garments and complain whenever somebody suggests it isn't really science.

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense." The object here is to convince the rubes that this is really science, and that they really are not ignorant if they insist that the earth is 6,000 years old or some such thing. In a culture where anti-intellectualism is running wild, that's enough to make a movement. It won't change the world, but it will keep the donations flowing to the Discovery Institute.

Bethell's book wasn't very good, and it is disappointing to see people who claim to have an interest in science not immediately seeing the thousand things wrong with it. But some of these works are much more deft and clever, and consequently can be harder to critique for people not conversant with the subject. The best of the recent ones (if by "best" we mean "best at misleading people") is probably Stephen Meyer's book Darwin's Doubt, which purports to un-explain the Cambrian Explosion. But when your audience is eager to hear the message, even sorry stuff like Darwin's House of Cards will do the trick.


Puck, welcome and thank you for both your excellent book review and this post. Mormonism is an interesting case. Mormonism is a religion that canonized the phrase “the glory of God is intelligence” and yet here we see Dr. Daniel C. Peterson of Brigham Young University encouraging others to read a very bad book of pseudo-science. The gambit seems to be one of keeping the people in the pews by hook or crook until the equations are resolved in the right way (preconceived ideas of Divinity). In the meantime, people’s scientific literacy is being actively destroyed such that they are incapable of understanding the equation if it ever is resolved to any theist’s satisfaction. It is a lose-lose proposition for everyone.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_grindael
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _grindael »

This, of course, is a hopeless task if your intended audience is scientifically literate. But -- great news! -- most people really aren't. Nor do they, to use your phrasing, "exercise a modicum of caution and common sense."


I know this is true, but it is still damn frightening to me.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_grindael
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Re: Peterson Challenges Everyone to Read THIS book!!!

Post by _grindael »

Do you think that these pseudo-scientists really believe what they are churning out, or do they know it is a ploy and are simply protecting their way of life? Does anyone think that Peterson really believes this stuff? I mean, I understand that younger people may fall for it, or the uneducated. But Peterson is none of that, nor (probably) the purveyors of this crap. Do they simply think all the real hard science is being manipulated by people as puppets of Satan, or some similar scenario?
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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