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 Post subject: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:42 pm 
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There was an interesting thread at Mormon D&D on a talk by Elder Renlund and his wife. They talked about the Mormon ship of curious construction having a few dents and scrapes, but not enough for anyone to warrant being a "perpetual doubter" and the importance of remaining onboard since the Mormon ship was the only one authorized to be in salvation waters without being fired upon by the spirit shore artillery.

Stem and Runtu had some wry observations. I kept thinking about the dents and scrapes in the RMS Titanic when reading that thread.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70758-%E2%80%9Cdoubt-not-but-be-believing%E2%80%9D-elder-and-sister-renlund-ces-training-june-2018/

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:07 pm 
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The good ship zion was such a nice ship from my point of view for many years. Too bad it was based on imaginary construction like Nephi's ship or the Jaredite submarines.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:26 am 
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Dings and faded paint is a highly dubious posture.

Mormonism is the Disney of religious representation, and the officers of SS. Zion are very liberal using up the resources and energy of the conscripted passengers to keep it artificially shining brightly.

Everything that matters is below the waterline. The bowels of your nearby temple look the same as any other commercial building. Dirt, grease, oil, stains, dust, crates, and the all the various underpinnings which the public never sees. It’s all about the presentation.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:25 am 
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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:01 am 
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For me, all this stuff about wordplay and chiasmus, even if it were at all compelling, is that it pales in comparison to my knowing that I sold my conscience for the church. I rationalized pretty awful stuff because it was done by prophets and apostles. That I had also compromised my intellect was important, too.

This will sound terrible to some, but the people I know who started, as I did, defending the church but ended up on the other side, have one thing in common: integrity. All the BS excuses about why we leave (lack of testimony, desire to sin, etc., etc.) really come down to having the integrity to acknowledge that we were wrong. I don't know what it says about my integrity that it took me 10 years to go from acknowledging that LDS truth claims didn't work to recognizing the implications, but I'm glad I am where I am.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:10 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
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Perfect! On every level.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:14 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
For me, all this stuff about wordplay and chiasmus, even if it were at all compelling, is that it pales in comparison to my knowing that I sold my conscience for the church. I rationalized pretty awful stuff because it was done by prophets and apostles. That I had also compromised my intellect was important, too.

This will sound terrible to some, but the people I know who started, as I did, defending the church but ended up on the other side, have one thing in common: integrity. All the BS excuses about why we leave (lack of testimony, desire to sin, etc., etc.) really come down to having the integrity to acknowledge that we were wrong. I don't know what it says about my integrity that it took me 10 years to go from acknowledging that LDS truth claims didn't work to recognizing the implications, but I'm glad I am where I am.

Beautifully said.


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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
For me, all this stuff about wordplay and chiasmus, even if it were at all compelling, is that it pales in comparison to my knowing that I sold my conscience for the church. I rationalized pretty awful stuff because it was done by prophets and apostles. That I had also compromised my intellect was important, too.

This will sound terrible to some, but the people I know who started, as I did, defending the church but ended up on the other side, have one thing in common: integrity. All the BS excuses about why we leave (lack of testimony, desire to sin, etc., etc.) really come down to having the integrity to acknowledge that we were wrong. I don't know what it says about my integrity that it took me 10 years to go from acknowledging that LDS truth claims didn't work to recognizing the implications, but I'm glad I am where I am.


I think integrity is what it comes down to as well as some courage to face the consequences of breaking away from the group. You've shown both. I echo warerdog on your statement above.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:57 pm 
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What in God's name have we done...?

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
I think integrity is what it comes down to as well as some courage to face the consequences of breaking away from the group.

I think it can also require alternatives to what we thought we knew.

I mean the deep reaching psychological framing of the world. My brother left the church 20 years ago but has experienced 20 years of internalized shame. Another brother, however, had always been sceptical and only stayed because of the family structure he thought it promoted.

You can leave the church physically, like my first brother did as a way to survive, but it can still stick to you until you have a different way to think.


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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I think it can also require alternatives to what we thought we knew.

I mean the deep reaching psychological framing of the world. My brother left the church 20 years ago but has experienced 20 years of internalized shame. Another brother, however, had always been sceptical and only stayed because of the family structure he thought it promoted.

You can leave the church physically, like my first brother did as a way to survive, but it can still stick to you until you have a different way to think.


Does it surprise anyone that my take on this talk (that it trivializes the issues members are struggling with) is clouded by a glib rejection of my issues some 10 years ago by mission president? It seems to be a variation on the "you left the church because you were offended" trope.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Does it surprise anyone that my take on this talk (that it trivializes the issues members are struggling with) is clouded by a glib rejection of my issues some 10 years ago by mission president? It seems to be a variation on the "you left the church because you were offended" trope.


There is a lack of common ground on which to discuss Renlund's analogy. In that thread, for those people who were defending the boat analogy, there is only one boat, and for them to even consider that there might be more than one boat is to place them in the same situation as the doubters. They are not going to do that, in fact they insist on the other side proving them wrong first.

As Bluebell over there puts it. See here.

Bluebell at MAD wrote:
But it's only a false dichotomy if the LDS church isn't the only church on the earth that has access to God's authority and His saving ordinances. If the church is what it claims to be, it's an analogy that works, as there isn't any other church that can offer what the LDS church offers.

I think, before you can reasonably ask someone to 'shift the rhetoric' to something you believe is better, you have to do two things. You have to see if such a request is logical, considering their sincere beliefs. Otherwise, it's not really fair to want someone to shift their rhetoric to something that they don't believe is true. And if they believe it's not true, then you have to convince them that your ideas on the subject are right and their's are wrong before asking them to adopt them.


So as long as the faithful claim to have the only boat it is up to everyone else to convince them that there are other boats. Until then it is your own fault for leaving the only boat.

Renlund's talk was not intended to help doubters, it was intended to make those who are sitting in his dumpy, run down boat, feel like they are making the right decision to stay.

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Runtu wrote:
Does it surprise anyone that my take on this talk (that it trivializes the issues members are struggling with) is clouded by a glib rejection of my issues some 10 years ago by mission president? It seems to be a variation on the "you left the church because you were offended" trope.


There is a lack of common ground on which to discuss Renlund's analogy. In that thread, for those people who were defending the boat analogy, there is only one boat, and for them to even consider that there might be more than one boat is to place them in the same situation as the doubters. They are not going to do that, in fact they insist on the other side proving them wrong first.

As Bluebell over there puts it.

So as long as the faithful claim to have the only boat it is up to everyone else to convince them that there are other boats. Until then it is your own fault for leaving the only boat.

Renlund's talk was not intended to help doubters, it was intended to make those who are sitting in his dumpy, run down boat, feel like they are making the right decision to stay.


I agree with you that it seems geared more toward making people who stay feel better. But then that's just because I got my feelings hurt years ago by my mission president. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: A few dings in the SS Mormon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I think it can also require alternatives to what we thought we knew.

I mean the deep reaching psychological framing of the world. My brother left the church 20 years ago but has experienced 20 years of internalized shame. Another brother, however, had always been sceptical and only stayed because of the family structure he thought it promoted.

You can leave the church physically, like my first brother did as a way to survive, but it can still stick to you until you have a different way to think.


Does it surprise anyone that my take on this talk (that it trivializes the issues members are struggling with) is clouded by a glib rejection of my issues some 10 years ago by mission president? It seems to be a variation on the "you left the church because you were offended" trope.


How can any of us not feel the sting of rejection in it? Tribalism sucks. Even if we have solid ground under our feet.

Eta: what I meant by alternatives is that, you seem to have had the makings of a framework that allowed you to "think outside the boat" enough to question it in the first place.


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