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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Of course we ignore the "chain migration" taking place in Trump's own family.


Oh, not all of us have forgotten how Melania "Einstein" Trump got her citizenship.

Which makes about as much sense as calling out a Drug Enforcement Agent for taking Tylenol.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:32 pm 
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By the way, did anyone else notice that the administration is now projecting a budget deficit for FY 2019 of $1.01 trillion dollars?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/u ... /19msr.pdf

Ironically, the OMB's mid-session review is subtitled "Efficient, Effective, Accountable." :eek:

The summary is a marvel to read, as it sounds like it was written by Trump's personal physician: lots of hyperbole about "MAGAnomics" (is that even a thing?). It's pretty amazing that Mick Mulvaney could go from a deficit hawk in Congress to this kind of ridiculous cheerleading for fiscal irresponsiblity. Oh, but it's the Democrats' fault! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
I'm a registered Republican, for what it's worth, but I agree about the pointlessness of this never-ending carping on how the other side is terrible, and everything would be OK if we were in charge. Frankly, my concern is that the Trump administration is doing what Steve Bannon wanted: destroying the GOP from within. Perhaps something more principled could arise from its ashes, but the current party seems to have no political beliefs other than lower taxes and building a wall.


I was amazed by the ready willingness of GOP politicians to accept Trump's bogus clarification of his disastrous comments at Helsinki. He changes one word in that complete debacle, and apparently all is forgiven. What is the endgame for these Republicans? Why do they seem so unconcerned about the very real threat that Trump may be under the thumb of Putin? Are they just waiting it out? Are they overconfident of our ability to survive this? Are others too anxious about what Trump is doing? Trump's performance in Helsinki was a disaster. What he is doing in general seems little better. OK, so he made the stupid mistake of lowering taxes in the midst of an upturn in the economy against the advice of all responsible economists, but it seems to be working out in the short term. He also got us out of the quagmire of Syria (something else Putin wanted). He gave them their conservative justices on Supreme Court. But his deconstruction of the federal government, his assaults on human rights, smashing the existing world order to pieces, his fight against the Mueller investigation, etc., etc., etc. . .

Great damage is being done. Is there something that is so worthwhile here that Republicans are willing to risk everything on this bet?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I was amazed by the ready willingness of GOP politicians to accept Trump's bogus clarification of his disastrous comments at Helsinki. He changes one word in that complete debacle, and apparently all is forgiven. What is the endgame for these Republicans? Why do they seem so unconcerned about the very real threat that Trump may be under the thumb of Putin? Are they just waiting it out? Are they overconfident of our ability to survive this? Are others too anxious about what Trump is doing? Trump's performance in Helsinki was a disaster. What he is doing in general seems little better. OK, so he made the stupid mistake of lowering taxes in the midst of an upturn in the economy against the advice of all responsible economists, but it seems to be working out in the short term. He also got us out of the quagmire of Syria (something else Putin wanted). He gave them their conservative justices on Supreme Court. But his deconstruction of the federal government, his assaults on human rights, smashing the existing world order to pieces, his fight against the Mueller investigation, etc., etc., etc. . .

Great damage is being done. Is there something that is so worthwhile here that Republicans are willing to risk everything on this bet?


They are afraid of their base, which continues to support Trump. The problem is that, by becoming lickspittles, they turn off independents and others who might be tempted to vote Republican. My guess is that they think their gerrymandered majority is safe enough, but they figure that taking on Trump means they would face serious challenges in the primaries and caucuses.

As you say, gerrymandering is a huge problem, but it is precisely because the GOP put its money into developing the party at the local and state level, whereas the Democrats stayed focused on the national party. Consequently, you have most states being run by Republicans, and they control how districts are drawn, meaning that the map favors Republicans. I think we agree that gerrymandering is unethical, but it isn't illegal if it's based on political power. It's not going to become illegal anytime soon, so the best hope for the Democrats in the long term is to take back the local and state governments they used to dominate.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:17 pm 
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The democrats had a lot of momentum that could have translated to the local level. Sanders was getting huge crowds. But they had their anointed one that seemingly was the only one who could have lost to Trump. The party needs to get back to populism and antiwar, and attack the monopolists that are strangling us. Maybe then can it take back local government.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:54 pm 
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I just don't understand the idea that it's OK to put our country at a competitive disadvantage economically, blow up our deficit, suck up to dictators, and attack our allies--that somehow building a wall makes that all OK.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Of course we ignore the "chain migration" taking place in Trump's own family.

Kishkumen wrote:
Oh, not all of us have forgotten how Melania "Einstein" Trump got her citizenship.

Water Dog wrote:
Which makes about as much sense as calling out a Drug Enforcement Agent for taking Tylenol.


Actually, it's more like calling out the head of DEA for his wife snorting coke.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
I just don't understand the idea that it's OK to put our country at a competitive disadvantage economically, blow up our deficit, suck up to dictators, and attack our allies--that somehow building a wall makes that all OK.

Dude, you gotta stop constructing these straw men.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Morley wrote:
Actually, it's more like calling out the head of DEA for his wife snorting coke.

Ok, if you say so. The word "legal" isn't spelled as "illegal." Note the prefix "il-". Ask Runtu to help you, he's a writer, he knows words.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Good timing, for Symmachus (and whoever).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 2ac9ec6e7b

Michael Anton wrote:
A Supreme Court confirmation fight always raises constitutional hopes and stokes constitutional fears. With one more justice, they'll repeal Obamacare! If they get one more justice, they'll overturn Roe v. Wade ! To arms!
These periodic, now-inevitable freak-outs are a sad by-product of our country's drift away from political rule and over-investiture of power in the judiciary. But happily, the most urgent constitutional challenge of our time needn't wait on a court ruling. Each political branch of government has the constitutional authority needed to fix it.

I refer, here, to ending birthright citizenship.

The notion that simply being born within the geographical limits of the United States automatically confers U.S. citizenship is an absurdity -- historically, constitutionally, philosophically and practically.

Constitutional scholar Edward Erler has shown that the entire case for birthright citizenship is based on a deliberate misreading of the 14th Amendment. The purpose of that amendment was to resolve the question of citizenship for newly freed slaves. Following the Civil War, some in the South insisted that states had the right to deny citizenship to freedmen. In support, they cited 1857's disgraceful Dred Scott v. Sandford decision, which held that no black American could ever be a citizen of the United States.

A constitutional amendment was thus necessary to overturn Dred Scott and to define the precise meaning of American citizenship.

...

Some will argue that the Supreme Court has already settled this issue, establishing birthright citizenship in United States v. Wong Kim Ark. But this is wrong. The court has only ruled that children of legal residents are citizens. That doesn't change the status of children born to people living here illegally.

...

The problem can be fixed easily. Congress could clarify legislatively that the children of noncitizens are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, and thus not citizens under the 14th Amendment. But given the open-borders enthusiasm of congressional leaders of both parties, that's unlikely.

It falls, then, to Trump. An executive order could specify to federal agencies that the children of noncitizens are not citizens.

...

Birthright citizenship was a mistake whose time has gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Huh.

Sen. Jacob Howard wrote:
This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States.

Should get interesting. I have a feeling this will be settled in the not-too-distant future.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?co ... &recNum=11


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:
Actually, it's more like calling out the head of DEA for his wife snorting coke.

Ok, if you say so. The word "legal" isn't spelled as "illegal." Note the prefix "il-". Ask Runtu to help you, he's a writer, he knows words.


Legal but dodgy, which is more than we can say for other things in Trumpland.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43256318


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:
Actually, it's more like calling out the head of DEA for his wife snorting coke.

Ok, if you say so. The word "legal" isn't spelled as "illegal." Note the prefix "il-". Ask Runtu to help you, he's a writer, he knows words.


I could do without the snark. You don’t have to treat people like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
I could do without the snark. You don’t have to treat people like this.

Noted. If my remark offended, I apologize. Sincerely. It was not directed at you, if that's how you're interpreting it. I was merely responding to snark with snark. And I am curious, why would you take exception with what I said, but not what others have said towards me?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:14 pm 
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The 14th amendment didn't create birthright citizenship, bad federal bureaucratic precedent did. It has never appeared before congress to be settled. Legal scholars debate the matter, credible voices on both sides of the question. I was not weighing in on those debates but offering opinions on the spirit of the situation. Logically, birth right citizenship is dumb.


That is incorrect. The text of the section 1 of the 14th amendment reads:


Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


Obviously, as an amendment to the constitution, it was in fact settled by congress before submission to the states. And the Supreme Court has established that children born to foreign nationals are still citizens because of this amendment. Legal scholars—well, I'm going to guess it's mostly conservative legal scholars—debate whether this is still true in the case of children whose parents who have entered illegally, but the reasoning against it leads to all sorts of problems. The idea that entering illegally means that they are not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," is contradictory; otherwise, on what basis could you prosecute someone for entering illegally in the first place?

In any case, your claim that birthright citizenship is dumb continues to be abominable position if you think it through a bit more. The concept of ius soli is certainly something the founders, good students of Blackstone's commentaries and children of English common law, would have endorsed. There are also a host of justifications that I alluded to that have to do with the classical liberalism that sits at the base of American constitutionalism. Michael Anton's reasoning should bother anyone who values that base (the circumstances of it are relevant but he misses the point: the point of this clause is to ensure that the reasoning behind Dred Scott could never happen again; Amendments may arise out of particular circumstances but the whole point is to establish a general principle, not deal with one circumstance, which is what legislation is for). In any case, he is a right-wing political hack, not a constitutional scholar. Red flags should go up whenever you see professed conservatives arguing against something as conservative and traditional as the ius soli of English common law.

By the way, I would appreciate if you could clarify the basis on which you imagine your own citizenship to be legitimate. Is it

A) through your parents (i.e. chain-based)

B) birth in the United States (birthright citizenship)

C) a combination of A and B

D) some other means

E) not a citizen

As for the link you posted, can you point me to the case that has established this reasoning as law, or do you consider an op-ed to be good enough for you? As I mentioned above, there are all kinds of contradictions that ensue if you start to imagine that someone who is here illegal is not subject to the laws of the United States.

[quote]As for immigration, you're flatly wrong. You are misconstruing the spirit of what I said. Is there is a law which states illegal alien parents of citizen babies get automatic citizenship? No. [quote]

The 14th amendment is quite clear; only people who are opposed to immigration for other reasons have an issue with it.

I hate to invoke personal experience again, but what you write here about the process reads like someone who has never had to deal with naturalization firsthand. I mentioned my friend earlier (and correction, it's not 18 but 21 that there child must be), and he has 0 protection if he loses his H1-B. "After becoming adults" is a pretty large period of time, although you may be right that the perception of ease is an incentive. Short of repealing this clause of the 14th amendment—utter folly for reasons that are apparently over your head—I don't know what you imagine congress could do to change the perceptions of half-literate people in third world countries. Trump's policies, on the other hand, might have the effect you desire.

I myself am married to an immigrant (now a citizen) and have observed this process firsthand from before we were married. Every step of her immigration was 100% legal but by god they sure put her (and eventually me!) through the ringer, even after her application for a green card shifted to one based on marriage. In fact there are all sorts of problems with an application for a greencard, spousal or not, if there is even a hint of something unlawful. That is with someone who is massively educated and financially well-off enough to afford an immigration lawyer. Based on my experience with legal immigration, I really doubt it is as easy as you imagine to transition from illegal to legal to citizen.

I certainly the agree the system needs to be fixed (actually it's not much of a system, at least in my experience); in fact, it appears to make life even harder for illegal immigrants, not easier, because the byzantine nature of it all renders everything unstable. But I also believe in the Enlightenment values on which the country was founded: birthright citizenship enshrines the idea that neither wealth nor descent can decide who an American is. Another Enlightenment value I cherish is accuracy, and on that what you are anecdotally claiming neither matches what I have observed firsthand and what I can find in the actual law. I think any fix should be rooted in the principles on which the country was founded.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Noted. If my remark offended, I apologize. Sincerely. It was not directed at you, if that's how you're interpreting it. I was merely responding to snark with snark. And I am curious, why would you take exception with what I said, but not what others have said towards me?


You took that analogy personally?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
You took that analogy personally?

No. Nor did I respond in a personal way. I was just trying to crack a joke about using something that is "legal" to make a not-so-clever rejoinder about something that is "illegal." I didn't insult anyone, although I can see how Runtu may have interpreted my "he knows words" remark in that way. It wasn't meant to cast shade in his direction. Poorly worded on my part. I actually meant it in a sincere way, he is good with words. Better than me I have no doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Which makes about as much sense as calling out a Drug Enforcement Agent for taking Tylenol.

Morley wrote:
Actually, it's more like calling out the head of DEA for his wife snorting coke.

Water Dog wrote:
Ok, if you say so. The word "legal" isn't spelled as "illegal." Note the prefix "il-".


Not true. She could go to Peru (or a half dozen other countries) and snort it legally. But that might not be viewed too favorably.

I'm not sure how you interpreted my reply as snark. It was not intended as such. Apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Runtu wrote:
I just don't understand the idea that it's OK to put our country at a competitive disadvantage economically, blow up our deficit, suck up to dictators, and attack our allies--that somehow building a wall makes that all OK.

Dude, you gotta stop constructing these straw men.


A huge strawman is the term Amnesty when used to describe humane resolutions for long-term existing and working illegal immigrants. The framework denies that the USA was ever a part of the problem and therefore puts the full burden on the immigrants themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:52 am 
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Russian State TV host: "When Trump says our relations are bad because of American foolishness and stupidity, he really smells like an agent of the Kremlin."


https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1019389905020051456


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:38 am 
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Let's put it this way: Trump is on the same side as the Church on every major religious-freedom issue, and he has appointed federal judges who will uphold religious freedom.

I don't care much for Trump's character, but I like most of what he has done--tax cuts, deregulation, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh for the Supreme Court, dozens of solid judges for federal appeals court and district court openings, approving the Keystone XL pipeline, restoring the coal industry, rebuilding our military, bringing back manufacturing jobs (three of the four biggest jumps in manufacturing jobs in the last 15 years have happened under Trump), etc.

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