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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 pm 
Seedy Academician
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I marvel at people’s strange ability to see virtue and intelligence in people who utterly lack either quality. It reminds me of a recent biographer who tried to redeem the reputation of Caligula by claiming the emperor was essentially trolling the senate. The fact that Caligula’s methods were sadistic and sometimes completely divorced from reality, indeed, highly deleterious to the stability of the empire, particularly its ruling class, escaped the author in his clever attempt to read subtlety and purpose into Caligula’s actions. The best explanation, of course, is that Caligula was inexperienced and unequal to the responsibilities thrust upon him by his predecessor Tiberius. That hasn’t stopped others from imposing their fantasies on history. So is it with Trump.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:35 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I marvel at people’s strange ability to see virtue and intelligence in people who utterly lack either quality. It reminds me of a recent biographer who tried to redeem the reputation of Caligula by claiming the emperor was essentially trolling the senate. The fact that Caligula’s methods were sadistic and sometimes completely divorced from reality, indeed, highly deleterious to the stability of the empire, particularly its ruling class, escaped the author in his clever attempt to read subtlety and purpose into Caligula’s actions. The best explanation, of course, is that Caligula was inexperienced and unequal to the responsibilities thrust upon him by his predecessor Tiberius. That hasn’t stopped others from imposing their fantasies on history. So is it with Trump.


Have you heard of (I think it was) Clay Christensen's MS interview, where he compares a brick wall in the dark to the church? He says that you can examine the wall with a flashlight, and look at small areas at once and any crumbling or gaping holes. Yet you can imagine the entire wall as sturdy and stable despite the flaws. It's not until you turn on the light that you see what the wall is as a whole. He says that everyone has a light switch, but it is in a different place for each person.

I think the light switch is essentially the need to believe the wall is intact. And it's really not dark, we just don't allow ourselves to see all we can observe, when it is something we must adhere to for survival. Maybe our brains function that way to protect us in the short term.

That said, not all who support Trump believe in him dogmatically. Some are very pragmatic. I have personally seen Trump supporters admit that if he really is a sham, that's fine, because to them the country as it is needs destroying anyway. Others, I'm sure, believe the USA is resilient enough to survive a very bad president.

As for me, though I would really like to believe that progress moves inevitably forward, but I realize that individual life is delicate, progress can be decimated, and defeat really can be snatched from the jaws of victory. I still hope, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:59 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I am glad you wrote that. I appreciate it. Yet I am skeptical that such a hospital situation would represent a disaster. Have numbers and links?

I've not passed judgment on Trump here, but have criticised behavior. I do think it is a mistake to support him, and that people are legitimately upset at the endless ____ he's producing.

Did you see my response with the Pulse shooting speech?

Re hospitals closing I do not have numbers to present. As I said I doubt such numbers exist. And this is a phenomena which is about more than just illegal immigration, also heavily impacted by Obamacare, medicare/medicaid, etc. I simply meant it as an illustrative example. One which I happen to be aware of because I have seen it first-hand in my local communities.

Hospitals are closing. A lot of hospitals are also on a path to downgrade to critical care... despite populations and demand for both critical and non-critical services being much higher. The reason they do this is because if they limit their services to only critical care they become eligible for more government money. So by narrowing their focus they can maybe turn a profit, stay in business, and hopefully weather the political storm and ride things out and expand services later after rules change.

In terms of statistics defining the impact this has on the communities, I'm not aware of any such data. But I know first-hand that it means people are losing access to medical services. People who could drive 20 minutes to reach care, often essential to their life, like cancer treatments, now have to travel hours away to another city... where costs are also higher and there are rolling shortages for services. People who had critical access in one location, now have to travel an extra hour to another location. Whereas life flight helicopters used to be able to land at this one hospital, now they have to go to these other hospitals instead. So depending on where you are, maybe that means an extra 15 or 20 minutes flight time?Which could be the difference between life and death. There are no stats on this. Common sense tells us that there is an impact.

The point here though is not to suggest it's an Armageddon situation. Texas isn't the third world, although in some of these rural areas that could be disputed. Overall, we're making it work. The point is that it's a problem, a real one, and one which is slowing growing worse over time. If the economy dips, you'll see a bunch of hospitals close very quickly as funds dry up. Things are doing particularly well at the moment.

Hospitals are hardly the only problem. I can get on similar soap boxes relating to the schools, or crime. I pay a lot of money into the local school district but don't send my kids there because of how bad the schools are. Don't mean to offend anyone, but yes, by and large the schools are being drug down by the influence of migrant populations that tax local resources. We can't even reliably keep staff in the schools. Teachers and administration repeatedly quit because of how hard and unreasonable the situation is.

Relating to crime I can tell you about a dead body that a drug cartel disposed of on my neighbors land recently, about a mile from my house. I can tell you about violent confrontations a different neighbor has had with suspicious persons using his private road as a meetup location. According to the local sheriff, someone I know and talk with, it is related to organized crime from Mexico. I can tell you about small cities, or neighborhoods within larger cities, that are entirely controlled by organized crime. Local police avoid these areas. If you travel into them they are highly patrolled by gangs. And it's sophisticated. They have networks of wireless cameras mounted everywhere to monitor comings and goings. They will use drones to watch from the sky. Seriously, without exaggeration.

You brought up the issue of tent cities in France, I can tell you about similar ghettos in my area. You'll have a nice little town, and then surrounding it, on the outskirts, are all these little Mexican villages. You go over there and it feels like you're in the third world, shanti homes, trash everywhere, pitbulls chained to every yard, tattooed thugs walking around, nobody speaks a word of english, and they even have their own stores and infrastructure in place. Walk in the little grocery store and everything is in spanish. It's really as if you're in Mexico. But actually you're well into TX hundreds of miles away.

Go into public bathrooms in the area and you'll often see poop-stained toilet paper overflowing out of trash cans because they don't realize this isn't Mexico and we have functioning sewer systems here. You can flush the TP, please do. Go to the local rivers and you'll often find them trashed out. I am involved with some local conservation groups that try to preserve and cleanup the rivers. Every single weekend during the summer months you can visit any public river access location and you'll find hundreds of people, Mexican music blazing, and trash everywhere. They come in with thousands of beer bottles and other trash and just leave it there. I can show you photos and videos. You can't comprehend the quantity of trash I'm talking about if you've never witnessed it. I'm not talking about a bottle here or there that someone forgets. I'm talking about an intentional act. Massive amounts of trash brought it, with zero thought or attempt to clean it up after. It is premeditated to dump it. A foreign cultural kind of mindset. If you've traveled to other countries you know what I'm talking about.

I have property, my own land, where the same thing happens. Very regularly I'll find couches, tires, TVs, bricks, tiles, concrete, whatever. Random crap that just gets dumped. I've pulled out hundreds of tires. I've setup cameras to watch and catch people, and have caught people. Care to guess the immigration status and ethnic country of origin for the people responsible for all this behavior?

I had federal police knock on my door one night, warning me to both stay indoors and be on the lookout because they were tracking three aliens who were fleeing capture and one of them had broken into a neighbors truck and stolen a firearm. They proceeded to search buildings on my property that they might be hiding in. Several days later, on a different property I own, miles away, I found abandoned backpacks left by migrants passing through. The same migrants from that night, I have no idea. On game cameras I often see random people walking through my land. I caught a poacher. He was hunting out of season, shooting deer, and hanging them from trees to bait hogs, which he was eating. All on my land. He is a citizen, born in the country, but his parents are illegals who migrated many years ago. And shortly before all this poaching went down, turns out he had a son who was shot and killed by SWAT when trying to arrest him, for murders he had committed, assassinations, on behalf of Mexican organized crime. Not making any of this up. I can show photos, news stories, etc., to prove it all. Photos of him hanging deer up in the woods. All of it.

I know, I know. I can feel the reaction of people reading my little rant here. Racist! Sigh. I do not think most of you, any of you, have a clue what's going on. Over in Utah, FL, CA, living your urban white collar lifestyle, you don't see any of this. To y'all there are not any immigration problems, it's just white privilege, manufactured, racism, people worked up into a frenzy by fox news. Come move over here and see for yourself if you don't believe it's real. What is your solution? What is your answer? The problems I'm describing, are they not legitimate problems? For years and years I just watch it get worse. Politician after politician talking, doing nothing. The only person who seems to be serious about it is Trump.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:36 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I am glad you wrote that. I appreciate it. Yet I am skeptical that such a hospital situation would represent a disaster. Have numbers and links?

I've not passed judgment on Trump here, but have criticised behavior. I do think it is a mistake to support him, and that people are legitimately upset at the endless ____ he's producing.

Did you see my response with the Pulse shooting speech?

Re hospitals closing I do not have numbers to present. As I said I doubt such numbers exist. And this is a phenomena which is about more than just illegal immigration, also heavily impacted by Obamacare, medicare/medicaid, etc. I simply meant it as an illustrative example. One which I happen to be aware of because I have seen it first-hand in my local communities.

Hospitals are closing. A lot of hospitals are also on a path to downgrade to critical care... despite populations and demand for both critical and non-critical services being much higher. The reason they do this is because if they limit their services to only critical care they become eligible for more government money. So by narrowing their focus they can maybe turn a profit, stay in business, and hopefully weather the political storm and ride things out and expand services later after rules change.

In terms of statistics defining the impact this has on the communities, I'm not aware of any such data. But I know first-hand that it means people are losing access to medical services. People who could drive 20 minutes to reach care, often essential to their life, like cancer treatments, now have to travel hours away to another city... where costs are also higher and there are rolling shortages for services. People who had critical access in one location, now have to travel an extra hour to another location. Whereas life flight helicopters used to be able to land at this one hospital, now they have to go to these other hospitals instead. So depending on where you are, maybe that means an extra 15 or 20 minutes flight time?Which could be the difference between life and death. There are no stats on this. Common sense tells us that there is an impact.

The point here though is not to suggest it's an Armageddon situation. Texas isn't the third world, although in some of these rural areas that could be disputed. Overall, we're making it work. The point is that it's a problem, a real one, and one which is slowing growing worse over time. If the economy dips, you'll see a bunch of hospitals close very quickly as funds dry up. Things are doing particularly well at the moment.

Hospitals are hardly the only problem. I can get on similar soap boxes relating to the schools, or crime. I pay a lot of money into the local school district but don't send my kids there because of how bad the schools are. Don't mean to offend anyone, but yes, by and large the schools are being drug down by the influence of migrant populations that tax local resources. We can't even reliably keep staff in the schools. Teachers and administration repeatedly quit because of how hard and unreasonable the situation is.

Relating to crime I can tell you about a dead body that a drug cartel disposed of on my neighbors land recently, about a mile from my house. I can tell you about violent confrontations a different neighbor has had with suspicious persons using his private road as a meetup location. According to the local sheriff, someone I know and talk with, it is related to organized crime from Mexico. I can tell you about small cities, or neighborhoods within larger cities, that are entirely controlled by organized crime. Local police avoid these areas. If you travel into them they are highly patrolled by gangs. And it's sophisticated. They have networks of wireless cameras mounted everywhere to monitor comings and goings. They will use drones to watch from the sky. Seriously, without exaggeration.

You brought up the issue of tent cities in France, I can tell you about similar ghettos in my area. You'll have a nice little town, and then surrounding it, on the outskirts, are all these little Mexican villages. You go over there and it feels like you're in the third world, shanti homes, trash everywhere, pitbulls chained to every yard, tattooed thugs walking around, nobody speaks a word of english, and they even have their own stores and infrastructure in place. Walk in the little grocery store and everything is in spanish. It's really as if you're in Mexico. But actually you're well into TX hundreds of miles away.

Go into public bathrooms in the area and you'll often see poop-stained toilet paper overflowing out of trash cans because they don't realize this isn't Mexico and we have functioning sewer systems here. You can flush the TP, please do. Go to the local rivers and you'll often find them trashed out. I am involved with some local conservation groups that try to preserve and cleanup the rivers. Every single weekend during the summer months you can visit any public river access location and you'll find hundreds of people, Mexican music blazing, and trash everywhere. They come in with thousands of beer bottles and other trash and just leave it there. I can show you photos and videos. You can't comprehend the quantity of trash I'm talking about if you've never witnessed it. I'm not talking about a bottle here or there that someone forgets. I'm talking about an intentional act. Massive amounts of trash brought it, with zero thought or attempt to clean it up after. It is premeditated to dump it. A foreign cultural kind of mindset. If you've traveled to other countries you know what I'm talking about.

I have property, my own land, where the same thing happens. Very regularly I'll find couches, tires, TVs, bricks, tiles, concrete, whatever. Random crap that just gets dumped. I've pulled out hundreds of tires. I've setup cameras to watch and catch people, and have caught people. Care to guess the immigration status and ethnic country of origin for the people responsible for all this behavior?

I had federal police knock on my door one night, warning me to both stay indoors and be on the lookout because they were tracking three aliens who were fleeing capture and one of them had broken into a neighbors truck and stolen a firearm. They proceeded to search buildings on my property that they might be hiding in. Several days later, on a different property I own, miles away, I found abandoned backpacks left by migrants passing through. The same migrants from that night, I have no idea. On game cameras I often see random people walking through my land. I caught a poacher. He was hunting out of season, shooting deer, and hanging them from trees to bait hogs, which he was eating. All on my land. He is a citizen, born in the country, but his parents are illegals who migrated many years ago. And shortly before all this poaching went down, turns out he had a son who was shot and killed by SWAT when trying to arrest him, for murders he had committed, assassinations, on behalf of Mexican organized crime. Not making any of this up. I can show photos, news stories, etc., to prove it all. Photos of him hanging deer up in the woods. All of it.

I know, I know. I can feel the reaction of people reading my little rant here. Racist! Sigh. I do not think most of you, any of you, have a clue what's going on. Over in Utah, FL, CA, living your urban white collar lifestyle, you don't see any of this. To y'all there are not any immigration problems, it's just white privilege, manufactured, racism, people worked up into a frenzy by fox news. Come move over here and see for yourself if you don't believe it's real. What is your solution? What is your answer? The problems I'm describing, are they not legitimate problems? For years and years I just watch it get worse. Politician after politician talking, doing nothing. The only person who seems to be serious about it is Trump.


My reaction was not "that's racist," it was "that's anecdote." The data shows no relationship tying crime rate increases with immigration. It sounds like you live on the US-Mexico border. (by the way I grew up low-income in Texas.) I fully believe you that there are problems, but I'm not convinced of your assessment of what is going on in the grand scheme, especially regarding a nation-wide approach to all border crossings and all immigration.

For example, wouldn't it make more sense for law enforcement to be supplemented to go target the concentrations of organized crime? Anyways, this framing that immigrants are "pouring" in and bringing crime with them is inaccurate. Objectively, the data seems to show that born-and-raised Americans are just as good or better at committing crimes.

I think that the US government as unfortunately colluded far too much historically in illegal immigration, closing one or both eyes so that American-tax-paying and politician-supporting corporations can enjoy cheap labor. Eta: The point of that being that there are lots of ways we've failed, and part of that includes failing immigrants themselves.


Last edited by Meadowchik on Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:45 am 
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Runtu wrote:
I just think he's ignorant, narcissistic, and not remotely capable of performing the job of president. I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I think it's wishful thinking to believe he's on top of the issues and has some sort of guiding principles for his presidency and for the country. So, yes, I do think his personality, skills, and experience are important, but I might be able to overlook all that if I thought he was doing a good job. I don't.

We disagree. He might be narcissistic, but I hold the same opinion of his predecessor. Just in terms of his speaking, it was always about him. There's a lot to unpack here that we could discuss. In what sense is he "not remotely capable?" In the sense of his work ethic? His ability to simply do the job, day to day? Or in the sense of his organizational leadership, to effectively manage a very large bureaucratic entity? Or in the sense of his political prowess, social persuasion and media savvy, ability to advance legislative changes?

I think Obama was good at some things, very bad at others. I'd say the same about Trump. I'm not suggesting Trump is operating at some higher order of intelligence, twenty 3D chess moves ahead, as depicted by certain troll MEMEs. He has plenty of gaffs and mistakes. There is a lot he's ignorant about. (As was/is Obama). To use his terminology, though, he's winning. He is putting points on the board. If we break down the different hats a president has to wear, he wears many of them quite well. Even if you subscribe to a different political philosophy, which is fine, I respect that, you can observe his performance to be good. He is effectively advancing conservative and capitalist agenda. Which is one of the points I've been repeatedly trying to make in this thread. If you want to change the game, you need to start treating him like the formidable opposition that he is, take him seriously, rather than dismissing him.

Kishkumen wrote:
I marvel at people’s strange ability to see virtue and intelligence in people who utterly lack either quality. It reminds me of a recent biographer who tried to redeem the reputation of Caligula by claiming the emperor was essentially trolling the senate. The fact that Caligula’s methods were sadistic and sometimes completely divorced from reality, indeed, highly deleterious to the stability of the empire, particularly its ruling class, escaped the author in his clever attempt to read subtlety and purpose into Caligula’s actions. The best explanation, of course, is that Caligula was inexperienced and unequal to the responsibilities thrust upon him by his predecessor Tiberius. That hasn’t stopped others from imposing their fantasies on history. So is it with Trump.


Straw man. As far as Roman history is concerned, I can do nothing but defer to you. This is a weak comparison for that very reason. I could just as easily say the same about you, re Obama. You complained about lack of substance earlier, I'm still waiting for yours. All you offered was a Snopes apologetic piece that was easily taken apart. I could also say I marvel at people's strange ability to see evil and ignorance in people they don't know or understand merely because they look and speak differently. Books and their covers. Why does liberal culture have such an intense disdain for conservative culture? I genuinely marvel at how liberals pay lip service to diversity, hurl accusations of all the -isms and -phobias around, while simultaneously engaging in that very behavior towards anyone they disagree with. Boggles the mind. And then when you get called out for it, you start talking about some biography of a Roman emperor you read?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Yep! Guess that’s gonna have to be the way it is, Water Dog. I lost interest in what you had to say before you even offered your last “rebuttal.” It is not worth my time explaining this stuff to you. You managed to miss my point about Caligula completely. Big surprise. Your response is some old nugget about not judging a book by its cover, as though that were the problem. You are too busy exploding about librulz and what they supposedly do to think straight. This is the real TDS: voting for a complete incompetent to spite a group of people imagined up by FOX News.

Well played, Water Dog. Well played.

“For my next trick, I will perform seppuku, just to show you how unreasonable librulz are! Tudduh!”


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:13 pm 
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It is really a marvel to behold—the degree to which people can convince themselves they are locked in some kind of Manichaean struggle against an enemy whose identity is stable. It makes taking these posts seriously extremely difficult. I have watched the defection of conservatives from the GOP over the issue of Trumpism. Numerous people have noted how the political landscape is changing, and yet people hop into conversations frothing about liberals and conservatives and comparing “what your guy does/did” versus “what my guy does/did” and then trying mightily hard to compare them in just the right way so their guy comes out on top. You see it happen so many times to such complete pointlessness that you can only conclude this is a kind of mass mental illness or epidemic of stupidity.

The minute someone says, “yeah, well the guy from the other party did this,” you might as well hang it up. The rational conversation ended some time before that person started typing/speaking. See very clearly that you are already in a war of words, not a conversation, a proble-solving exercise, or an attempt to understand the situation at hand. You are locked in a struggle to rationalize and claim the high ground.

I take some solace in the fact that a few people retained their wits when the storm hit. Unfortunately, enough people have continued to buy into the Newspeak or just had to hold onto old habits that you pretty much have to ignore 90% of every exchange on these topics. I should know better than to waste my time on it. It almost inevitably ends with everyone justifying their own position, no matter how looney it is. Ride the storm, vote your conscience, and do no harm to others.

Maybe some day people will return to their good senses. God seems to have closed ears and hardened hearts in the meantime, to borrow some famous poetic imagery.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
It is really a marvel to behold—the degree to which people can convince themselves they are locked in some kind of Manichaean struggle against an enemy whose identity is stable. It makes taking these posts seriously extremely difficult. I have watched the defection of conservatives from the GOP over the issue of Trumpism. Numerous people have noted how the political landscape is changing, and yet people hop into conversations frothing about liberals and conservatives and comparing “what your guy does/did” versus “what my guy does/did” and then trying mightily hard to compare them in just the right way so their guy comes out on top. You see it happen so many times to such complete pointlessness that you can only conclude this is a kind of mass mental illness or epidemic of stupidity.

The minute someone says, “yeah, well the guy from the other party did this,” you might as well hang it up. The rational conversation ended some time before that person started typing/speaking. See very clearly that you are already in a war of words, not a conversation, a proble-solving exercise, or an attempt to understand the situation at hand. You are locked in a struggle to rationalize and claim the high ground.

It take some solace in the fact that a few people retained their wits when the storm hit. Unfortunately, enough people have continued to buy into the Newspeak or just had to hold onto old habits that you pretty much have to ignore 90% of every exchange on these topics. I should know better than to waste my time on it. It almost inevitably ends with everyone justifying their own position, no matter how looney it is. Ride the storm, vote your conscience, and do no harm to others.

Maybe some day people will return to their good senses. God seems to have closed ears and hardened hearts in the meantime, to borrow some famous poetic imagery.


It is fascinating to me how immigration has become this terrible crisis outweighing everything else. Trump blew a hole in the deficit? MS-13! Trump is giving away the store to North Korea? Mexico is sending rapists! Trump has imposed economically disastrous tariffs? An illegal killed a woman in a DUI! Trump is literally threatening to disband our most important alliance? Can't let that caravan cross the border! And so on.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that current immigration practices are in desperate need of reform. But it's not some existential threat that justifies screwing up our economy and alliances.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:40 pm 
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The strategy is this: create a crisis; engage in chicanery. Be wary of the person who identifies the enemy, gins up the threat, and offers themselves as the solution. It has worked well many times in the past. I am not sure we have ever lived in a time this trick was not being used in one way or another. But the pretty clumsy and shameless way it has been used in the past several years should stir in everyone deep consternation. When people don’t bother to conceal their hatred for distinct groups of others, that is when suffering on a large scale is about to be unleashed.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
The strategy is this: create a crisis; engage in chicanery. Be wary of the person who identifies the enemy, gins up the threat, and offers themselves as the solution. It has worked well many times in the past. I am not sure we have ever lived in a time this trick was not being used in one way or another. But the pretty clumsy and shameless way it has been used in the past several years should stir in everyone deep consternation. When people don’t bother to conceal their hatred for distinct groups of others, that is when suffering on a large scale is about to be unleashed.


In a weird way, I think this is good for us. Too many people had convinced themselves that we were in a "post-racial" and tolerant society. That we are now in a time when literal fascists and white supremacists feel they can openly espouse their hatreds tells me we aren't post-anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:37 pm 
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I suppose. I am not really enamored of the idea of progress, so I don’t know that I needed a reminder. Humans are humans. If we are riding high we pat ourselves on the back for being righteous or enlightened; when times get tough it is only too easy to look for scapegoats. Immigrants are scapegoats. Corporations are scapegoats. Maybe it is just the case that America is thrashing in the midst of its decline, and none of us wants to face the facts. So we scramble around looking for fruitless solutions that help give us a sense of purpose while change marches on. We might as well be starving tribespeople sacrificing a tenth of the last of our grain to the corn god.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Y'all's arrogance is something to behold.

Here's a picture of guys on my property carrying guns. Fenced property. Looks like he's carrying an AR15-style rifle. What are they doing? They didn't know I captured them on camera. Comforting, right? Nothing to be concerned about, whatsoever.

Image

Here's another guy. Different time, different location. Hanging up wildlife. Putting aside obvious security concerns, that's some awesome environmental stewardship right there, huh? He did this to at least 3 other deer as well.

Image

Lots more photos. Don't let me interrupt your little circle jerk, though. I'm clearly just a white supremacist, who's been made to feel empowered by a small handed cheeto eating fascist tyrant wannabe that's so sub intelligent he can't appreciate a good steak without drowning it in ketchup. I just need something to blame my problems on. I have a small dick, that's what it is. And it's Mexico's fault. I blame them. Yep. ROFL.

Runtu, you bring up existential threats. Existential is perhaps an exaggeration, but it's certainly a threat. This depends on how one defines existence. Would the USA cease to exist? No. Would a dramatic shift in culture and demographics affect its trajectory? Yes. Democrats around here aren't bashful about wanting an increase in immigration purely for the sake of trying to flip Texas blue. This has been their stated plan... for decades.

Without getting into an analysis of why things are so corrupt and dysfunctional in Mexico and other parts of Latin America, it seems at the very least prudent to acknowledge this reality. It's not as if they are living in the desert and starving for lack of resources. A vast landscape filled with abundant natural resources, not unlike the USA. Yet look at the problems. Whatever the cause, is it not reasonable to be concerned that a large and rapid change to the population might have the net impact of introducing those same types of problems here? Perhaps this is why assimilation is considered an important requirement of immigration around the world.

How are you able to so cavalierly dismiss the very idea of an existential threat? I can understand how one, living in a different area that's not so exposed to the problems might feel that way, out of sight, out of mind, but I would hope that a person of intellect and character would possess the humility to consider that maybe those who think differently do so for good reason, that they are living a different experience. I mean, are dead bodies being dropped off near your house? Are you catching people with guns on your land?

How about you, Kish? Have you ever rushed over to your neighbors house after getting a call from the wife who's afraid because her elderly husband was just assaulted by some bandidos? Have you ever personally felt that you're in physical danger? Perhaps you are personally aquatinted with law enforcement serving in various federal and state/county agencies in areas with large migrant populations. Do you regularly socialize with any of these types of first responders and hear their perspective about the situation, like I do? Surely that must be where your superior knowledge comes from.

I am just really curious how you people can be so damn sure of yourselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Y'all's arrogance is something to behold.

Here's a picture of guys on my property carrying guns. Fenced property. Looks like he's carrying an AR15-style rifle. What are they doing? They didn't know I captured them on camera. Comforting, right? Nothing to be concerned about, whatsoever.

Image

Here's another guy. Different time, different location. Hanging up wildlife. Putting aside obvious security concerns, that's some awesome environmental stewardship right there, huh? He did this to at least 3 other deer as well.

Image

Lots more photos. Don't let me interrupt your little circle jerk, though. I'm clearly just a white supremacist, who's been made to feel empowered by a small handed cheeto eating fascist tyrant wannabe that's so sub intelligent he can't appreciate a good steak without drowning it in ketchup. I just need something to blame my problems on. I have a small dick, that's what it is. And it's Mexico's fault. I blame them. Yep. ROFL.

Runtu, you bring up existential threats. Existential is perhaps an exaggeration, but it's certainly a threat. This depends on how one defines existence. Would the USA cease to exist? No. Would a dramatic shift in culture and demographics affect its trajectory? Yes. Democrats around here aren't bashful about wanting an increase in immigration purely for the sake of trying to flip Texas blue. This has been their stated plan... for decades.

Without getting into an analysis of why things are so corrupt and dysfunctional in Mexico and other parts of Latin America, it seems at the very least prudent to acknowledge this reality. It's not as if they are living in the desert and starving for lack of resources. A vast landscape filled with abundant natural resources, not unlike the USA. Yet look at the problems. Whatever the cause, is it not reasonable to be concerned that a large and rapid change to the population might have the net impact of introducing those same types of problems here? Perhaps this is why assimilation is considered an important requirement of immigration around the world.

How are you able to so cavalierly dismiss the very idea of an existential threat? I can understand how one, living in a different area that's not so exposed to the problems might feel that way, out of sight, out of mind, but I would hope that a person of intellect and character would possess the humility to consider that maybe those who think differently do so for good reason, that they are living a different experience. I mean, are dead bodies being dropped off near your house? Are you catching people with guns on your land?

How about you, Kish? Have you ever rushed over to your neighbors house after getting a call from the wife who's afraid because her elderly husband was just assaulted by some bandidos? Have you ever personally felt that you're in physical danger? Perhaps you are personally aquatinted with law enforcement serving in various federal and state/county agencies in areas with large migrant populations. Do you regularly socialize with any of these types of first responders and hear their perspective about the situation, like I do? Surely that must be where your superior knowledge comes from.

I am just really curious how you people can be so damn sure of yourselves.


I haven't accused you of white supremacy or fascism or lack of intelligence or little-dick syndrome or any of the other ____ you are throwing at me. I agree with you that our immigration system is broken and needs repair. I do not agree that a wall is going to magically fix the problem, as it's a hugely complex and expensive project with dubious value.

As far as the existential threat, the administration has been clear that they see immigration as such (hence, the stuff about invasions and infesting). And the idea that I have no concept of illegal immigration because I no longer live in a border state is silly.

Last I checked, expressing my opinion is no more arrogant than you expressing yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:08 pm 
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I apologize for being arrogant, Water Dog. If that were happening on my property, I would be scared ____. Fortunately, the gangs in my neighborhood have confined themselves to softer targets thus far. We had a home invasion by a gang led by a fellow who was under house arrest in another state (still wearing the ankle bracelet), and a Colombian gang that robbed all the cash and jewelry from another house. Thus far the very visible location of our house and the fact that we have an alarm system (signs all around) seem to have provided a small deterrent. Or maybe we are just lucky. We are contemplating a possible relocation to Texas. Maybe you can talk us out of it. At the very least you will have kept a few more of us circle-jerkin’, idiotic, arrogant librulz who want to pass out citizenship and voter registration to every littering minority criminal on either side of the border out.

Yes. These are real problems. Donny’s wall was never and will never solve them. I suppose it was nice to have someone appear to acknowledge the real problem. Maybe you can convince him to stop hiring foreigners so they will quit coming here to get trapped by his wall on the way up. Mar-a-Lago or bust!


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Quote:
I haven't accused you of white supremacy or fascism or lack of intelligence or little-dick syndrome or any of the other ____ you are throwing at me.


I will admit to suspecting all that about our Cheetoh-in-Chief. Water Dog, nope. I don’t see eye-to-eye with him, but I always considered him to be a big prick.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Quote:
I haven't accused you of white supremacy or fascism or lack of intelligence or little-dick syndrome or any of the other ____ you are throwing at me.


I will admit to suspecting all that about our Cheetoh-in-Chief. Water Dog, nope. I don’t see eye-to-eye with him, but I always considered him to be a big prick.


I apologize if I came across as arrogant.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Seriously, I have no problem admitting that the sight of gun-toting “illegals” poaching or God knows what on my property would freak me out. I would probably sell and leave. I can’t say I wouldn’t look at the problem of illegal immigration much differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
...but I always considered him to be a big prick.

FTR, I don't disagree with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:27 pm 
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by the way, Kish, if you come to Texas, we have to get together. I'll take you hunting or something. It will be epic.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
by the way, Kish, if you come to Texas, we have to get together. I'll take you hunting or something. It will be epic.


I really miss Texas. I’ll be there briefly in September but will be busy with grandbaby stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
by the way, Kish, if you come to Texas, we have to get together. I'll take you hunting or something. It will be epic.


Sounds like a deal to me. Been too many years since I last hunted.


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