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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:11 am 
Holy Ghost

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Water Dog wrote:

Again, I don't see where he is calling for due process rights to be violated. I see him describing a problem that exists and calling on Congress to take action. His description of the problem is accurate. Not calling for due process rights, laws, or treaties, to be violated. He's right, there should be reasonable ways to address this without having to go through the arduous time/expensive of courtroom proceedings. He's also right that we're the only lunatics on planet earth that do this. We're so obsessed with legal pageantry and moral optics that we make things worse for everybody with our bureaucracy. And people are taking advantage of this.... which is what democrats want. They won't admit that open borders is what they want, instead they play these heartsell games to try and make enforcement impossible. It's dishonest. And this dishonesty is what's frustrating conservatives. Let's have an honest debate, vote, and be done with this. Democrats don't want to do that, though, and refuse to do it, because they know which side of an honest debate the American people will fall on. Trump won, after all. The people want a border, and they want it to be enforced.


I don't think you or the "frustrated conservatives" who want a quick fix are seeing immigration realisitically. It is a fact of human life. It's not something which can be reduced to a perfectly-controlled border that prevents all crossings and either accepts or rejects people without difficulty. It is difficult. Human beings are born on the planet, our nations and borders are artifical constructs. We can and we do have laws enforcing border control and immigration, but it must be acknowledged that this is an issue that requires time and work. As a conservative myself, I knew immigration was a complex issue and I knew that expecting quick and easy solutions is foolish. I was grateful for the bipartisan work done on immigration during the Obama terms. Things like DACA and military paths to citizenship were ways to untangle the complicated problems of immigration. Court proceedings are investments in making the management of immigration issues a sober and careful process.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:26 am 
Holy Ghost

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Water Dog wrote:
As President, as the executive, he is speaking to a problem with our current system. Which is his job. He's right, the system is broken and needs to be changed. His tweet reminds me of one of the Hamilton letters. Trump's language is similar to his in arguing for a merit-based system.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 25-02-0282

We can debate political philosophy, but upon investigation I do not see how this tweet constitutes some sort of "crime" on Trump's part. Is this the best y'all got?


No, Trump was advocating for an absence of due process.

Quote:
We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents. Our Immigration policy, laughed at all over the world, is very unfair to all of those people who have gone through the system legally and are waiting on line for years! Immigration must be based on merit - we need people who will help to Make America Great Again!


It is very clear. "When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came."

This is unconstitutional. There are US citizens living abroad. Bad things do happen to them where they live and while travelling, and they could theoretically show up at the border, documents lost or stolen, trying to enter the US. Except being immediately sent back to where they were is a violation of their rights. Of course, treating non-citizens this way is also wrong.

You can argue all day about what you think Trump intends. But what he says is wrong. What he is advocating is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:42 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
As President, as the executive, he is speaking to a problem with our current system. Which is his job. He's right, the system is broken and needs to be changed. His tweet reminds me of one of the Hamilton letters. Trump's language is similar to his in arguing for a merit-based system.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents ... 25-02-0282

We can debate political philosophy, but upon investigation I do not see how this tweet constitutes some sort of "crime" on Trump's part. Is this the best y'all got?


No, Trump was advocating for an absence of due process.

Quote:
We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents. Our Immigration policy, laughed at all over the world, is very unfair to all of those people who have gone through the system legally and are waiting on line for years! Immigration must be based on merit - we need people who will help to Make America Great Again!


It is very clear. "When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came."

This is unconstitutional. There are US citizens living abroad. Bad things do happen to them where they live and while travelling, and they could theoretically show up at the border, documents lost or stolen, trying to enter the US. Except being immediately sent back to where they were is a violation of their rights. Of course, treating non-citizens this way is also wrong.

You can argue all day about what you think Trump intends. But what he says is wrong. What he is advocating is wrong.


Like I said, I never thought I'd see the day when people would be saying, "Don't pay attention to what the president says. It's just talk." The vilifying and scapegoating of immigrants--legal and otherwise--is a crude but convenient political tool that has been used by demagogues in many places and times before. It isn't conducive to a serious, comprehensive reform of our immigration system, which I would imagine most people agree needs to be reformed.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:11 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
Yes, the only evidence we have are Trump's own words. What are we supposed to think when the President says stuff like that? He's just joking? This is one huge problem I have with Trump. He says crazy stupid stuff as President of the US. Of course he can't act on all his impulses, because we have a system of checks and balances, thank god, but we have to believe the President means what he says. We can't have him yelling every thought that comes into his head like the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. And with the Republicans controlling congress, his crazy ideas aren't that far away from becoming reality. The President of the US simply can't talk out loud about ignoring the Constitution. We can't assume he's not seriously considering it.


What are you supposed to think? I wouldn't presume to tell you what to think. All I can tell you is that my interpretation of what he said differs from yours. As I said previously, I can understand how you would misinterpret his words. The way it appears to me is that you are having an immature reaction to his personality. You're reacting to "how" he says things rather than "what" he's actually saying. This is then made worse by all the screeching voices you're listening to, offering 24/7 apocalyptic interpretations of what he's up to.

It's not true, and this thread is bearing that reality out.

DarkHelmet wrote:
Yes, we are obsessed with "legal pageantry", whatever that is, because we are a nation of laws, not of rulers. When Trump tweets the crap he tweets, it appears he would rather we be a nation of rulers, not of laws. Due process doesn't exist to add costly and time consuming court proceedings. It's a very basic right. Remember when Trump wanted to string up the (innocent) Central Park 5? Due process prevents people like Trump from acting on their impulses. It may seem like catching people at the border and sending them back is just common sense, but what if the guy that is being dragged back to Mexico is arguing that he's a US citizen and there's been a mistake? Sorry, we can't endure a long and costly trial.

This is a terribly ironic response. Trump is the one who's continuously harping on the fact that we're a nation of laws, calling for the law to be respected, followed, and enforced! The democrats are the ones with a history of lawlessness and disorder. Laws which aren't enforced aren't laws! Obama was famous for selective enforcement driven by political bias. As far as I can tell, Trump is attempting to actually do his job, and enforce the law fully and equally across the board. This immigration debacle has been going on for how many decades? Time and time again the people vote to fix it, and the pols do nothing. You speak as though "due process" and "costly and time consuming court proceedings" are synonymous. They are not. And that's all Trump is saying. We are smart people. Do we want a border or not? Current law is ineffective. It doesn't work, it needs to be changed. He is not calling for an end to due process. Your interpretation is flatly wrong.

Take a step back and just think about what you're saying. Logically. Use some common sense. It is not possible for Congress to do away with due process. So, if Trump is calling for Congress to fix immigration law, how in the world can this be interpreted as a gesture that threatens due process? If his intent was to evade due process, he would go around Congress, not through it. And he would also do it quietly, covertly, not loudly on ____ Twitter.

What's your response to this? "Oh, well Trump's a total moron and just doesn't have a clue how any of this works and doesn't know what he's saying, blah blah blah"

If that's your response, you're an imbecile. One who's not interested in a serious discussion. Whatever his faults, Trump is clearly not a dumb man, or an incompetent man. He may not be eloquent, and you may disagree with his political philosophy, his morals, find his personality abrasive, whatever, but he's not an idiot. And that's simply not how this works. Do you really think Trump's words on twitter aren't being vetted? Even if you personally are dumb enough to actually believe Trump doesn't understand what due process is, this is the comical narrative playing on repeat in your brain, you don't think maybe someone else in the White House has explained it to him by now? If all you're capable of doing is reducing him to a straw man caricature, it's at your own peril. It's why you're losing. It's why people like me will never take you seriously.

I'm not a dumb person. Nor am I an immoral person. And I don't need to be convinced of that by gaining the approval of anyone here. I'm here sincerely asking for a mature, reasoned, explanation for why Trump is a bad human, a bad president, and why I should be ashamed by him and vote to replace him. I want to hear other perspectives and am open to considering them. I'm trying to be genuinely thoughtful. And your response is, "I don't like the way he talks." You know what, I don't really like the way he talks either. I mean it doesn't get under my skin in such a personal way like it does for you. You know what I do like though? Supreme Court picks. ISIS dead. Peace in North Korea. Tax cuts. Regulatory relief. Booming markets. Serious, action-oriented discussion about immigration for once. Etc.

You don't seem to comprehend what you're up against. You're gonna have to do a lot better than refer to some random tweet, which can be reasonably interpreted in a different way, to convince me that Trump is evil and that I should vote against him.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:19 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Like I said, I never thought I'd see the day when people would be saying, "Don't pay attention to what the president says. It's just talk." The vilifying and scapegoating of immigrants--legal and otherwise--is a crude but convenient political tool that has been used by demagogues in many places and times before. It isn't conducive to a serious, comprehensive reform of our immigration system, which I would imagine most people agree needs to be reformed.

Please don't lie about what I said. I'm right here. If there's confusion, you can ask me. I did not say, "Don't pay attention to what the president says. It's just talk." Said nothing of the sort. Nor did I promote the "vilifying and scapegoating of immigrants--legal and otherwise." Don't lie, please. If you want clarification on what I think, ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:22 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Please don't lie about what I said. I'm right here. If there's confusion, you can ask me. I did not say, "Don't pay attention to what the president says. It's just talk." Said nothing of the sort. Nor did I promote the "vilifying and scapegoating of immigrants--legal and otherwise." Don't lie, please. If you want clarification on what I think, ask me.


I'm not saying you did either of those things. I'm saying my father and many others have said the former, and the president and his allies are doing the latter. Sorry for the confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:32 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I don't think you or the "frustrated conservatives" who want a quick fix are seeing immigration realisitically. It is a fact of human life. It's not something which can be reduced to a perfectly-controlled border that prevents all crossings and either accepts or rejects people without difficulty. It is difficult. Human beings are born on the planet, our nations and borders are artifical constructs. We can and we do have laws enforcing border control and immigration, but it must be acknowledged that this is an issue that requires time and work. As a conservative myself, I knew immigration was a complex issue and I knew that expecting quick and easy solutions is foolish. I was grateful for the bipartisan work done on immigration during the Obama terms. Things like DACA and military paths to citizenship were ways to untangle the complicated problems of immigration. Court proceedings are investments in making the management of immigration issues a sober and careful process.

When did I, Trump, or anybody, claim that the fix is "quick" or "easy?" That being said I simply disagree with you. It is not an impossible problem. As Trump continues to point out, our system is among the worst in the entire world. We are the leading country in almost every respect, economic, military, culture, whatever, and yet tiny little countries in the third wold manage to do a better job of maintaining their national borders than we do. I have lived in dozens of countries, traveled to many times that, seen it with my own eyes. From my own experiences I can tell quite a lot of stories highlighting the stark differences. Arguments like this that amount to "woe is me" wallowing in the mire aren't going to get anywhere with me. We are perfectly capable of effective border enforcement, which is both humane and legal. And in my view, that's all Trump is saying. He has the "get 'er done" mindset. Construction. Build it. Go go go. His work ethic is insane. While his personality may leave much to be desired, that kind of drive is what we need, I think. The politicians will debate this issue literally forever without getting anything done. We need a task master to inch the thing forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:32 am 
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Runtu wrote:
I'm not saying you did either of those things. I'm saying my father and many others have said the former, and the president and his allies are doing the latter. Sorry for the confusion.

No worries, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:33 am 
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Quote:
If that's your response, you're an imbecile. One who's not interested in a serious discussion. Whatever his faults, Trump is clearly not a dumb man, or an incompetent man. He may not be eloquent, and you may disagree with his political philosophy, his morals, find his personality abrasive, whatever, but he's not an idiot. And that's simply not how this works. Do you really think Trump's words on twitter aren't being vetted? Even if you personally are dumb enough to actually believe Trump doesn't understand what due process is, this is the comical narrative playing on repeat in your brain, you don't think maybe someone else in the White House has explained it to him by now? If all you're capable of doing is reducing him to a straw man caricature, it's at your own peril. It's why you're losing. It's why people like me will never take you seriously.


For the record, I don't believe Trump's Twitter account is vetted. The evidence for this is a) the numerous times he's posted something that has blindsided his staff or had to be retracted immediately and b) the poor grammar and misspellings that routinely show up in his tweets. There are only two possible reasons for this: either the people vetting his tweets are terrible at their jobs, or he's just tweeting what he thinks, without vetting. Given that his tweets often come minutes after Fox & Friends discusses something, I'm not sure how the vetting can be done that quickly. Again, if someone is vetting it, they should be fired for incompetence.

As for an idiot, I wouldn't say that. As I said before, he has one proven skill, and he's mastered it completely: self-promotion, or "branding," you might say. I am quite sure he isn't well-versed in the Constitution (all 12 articles. lol), history, foreign relations, or economics. I used to say that there are two kinds of conservatives. Movement, or principle, conservatives are passionate about their beliefs because they have thoroughly studied them and worked them through to a consistent philosophy. Mike Lee is a good example, though he's way to the right of me. The other kind is what I call "gut conservatives," who go with their instincts, which happen to be conservative generally, though they are not wedded to particular political or economic principles. George W. Bush is a good example to me of a gut conservative. Trump is closer to a gut conservative to me, but I'm not sure his instincts are consistent, as he seems to be all over the map, except for a few issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:44 am 
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Runtu wrote:
For the record, I don't believe Trump's Twitter account is vetted. The evidence for this is a) the numerous times he's posted something that has blindsided his staff or had to be retracted immediately and b) the poor grammar and misspellings that routinely show up in his tweets. There are only two possible reasons for this: either the people vetting his tweets are terrible at their jobs, or he's just tweeting what he thinks, without vetting. Given that his tweets often come minutes after Fox & Friends discusses something, I'm not sure how the vetting can be done that quickly. Again, if someone is vetting it, they should be fired for incompetence.

As for an idiot, I wouldn't say that. As I said before, he has one proven skill, and he's mastered it completely: self-promotion, or "branding," you might say. I am quite sure he isn't well-versed in the Constitution (all 12 articles. lol), history, foreign relations, or economics. I used to say that there are two kinds of conservatives. Movement, or principle, conservatives are passionate about their beliefs because they have thoroughly studied them and worked them through to a consistent philosophy. Mike Lee is a good example, though he's way to the right of me. The other kind is what I call "gut conservatives," who go with their instincts, which happen to be conservative generally, though they are not wedded to particular political or economic principles. George W. Bush is a good example to me of a gut conservative. Trump is closer to a gut conservative to me, but I'm not sure his instincts are consistent, as he seems to be all over the map, except for a few issues.

I believe a lot of tweets are coming from Trump directly, but not all. I think some are ghost written. And I believe it's all vetted, at least reviewed. I don't think it's a quick process, but I'm sure a lawyer or someone reads it first. I don't think that was necessarily the case initially, but is now. I forget where, I but I recall reading this somewhere as well, they have a process in place specifically for twitter. Who knows though, I'm sure eventually the details of that will be known. The ultimate point I'm getting at remains the same though. The idea that Trump doesn't know about due process is ludicrous. Even if he didn't at one point, which, come on, he's for-sure been informed, and has the intelligence to adjust both his thinking and words accordingly. To think that's what he's saying with these tweets is an obvious misinterpretation.

I generally agree with your assessment of conservatives. Clearly there is a divide between the theoreticians, the gentleman scholars, and the more practical hands-on approach. Trump represents the blue collar conservatives. Which annoys the heck out of the academics, because his theory is not pure and he sometimes sounds squishy and liberal (like his public infrastructure ambitions, tariffs, etc). While Bush may have been more of a "gut" kind of guy like you say, he was still a Bush, and came from a silver spoon tradition of high minded, elitist political thinking. While he certainly wasn't much of an academic himself, he was surrounded by those types and ultimately his decisions were driven by that kind of thinking.

Going into Iraq the most obvious example. Normal people would have had the sense to know what they didn't know and stayed the hell away from that debacle. Impose democracy in the middle east? ROFL. I'm sure it sounded like such a perfect plan to all those nerds when they were sitting around the table. Not unlike how I imagine private strategy discussions among the church leaders. They "know" the church is true. To them the "theory" is perfect. So in their minds, well, all they have to do is arrange the deck chairs in the right order and things will sort themselves out. Because the theory is so pure. It sells itself. All the gentleman scholars told themselves the same b.s. about Iraq, democracy, american values, exceptionalism, blah blah blah. We just need to liberate them, and like magic, because our culture just sells itself, they will see the light and convert to our religion.

As you can probably tell, I've grown cynical towards this type of thinking. Talking philosophy, I love the theoriticians and generally agree with them. I believe they have their place. But I also think those people have failed, over and over, and we need some no nonsense knuckle draggers to get things done. Trump fits the bill. I work in very rough fields. I'm an engineer, also military, usually working in harsh environments or with people who are in harsh environments. Think dirty jobs, Mike Rowe, etc. Everybody loves Trump. All of the men in these types of fields absolutely love Trump. His brash, no-nonsense style, resonates with them. Most of these people are used to the same type of conflicts. Them vs. the corporate bureaucracy. Or the union or govt bureaucracy. They are the hands on people responsible for actually fixing the problem, but they have to deal with all these other non-technical people who seem frankly useless and just in the way. The red tape.

And maybe that's why Trump doesn't rub me the way he seems to rub a lot of you. When he speaks, I'm understanding what he's saying. At a gut level, as you say, I hear and understand him. Because I hear other people talking like that all day. Just like how I know this electrician, who was bemoaning excessive lock out tag out rules in this particular jurisdiction, and mandatory union escorts slowing him down, wasn't arguing that we should violate the law, or ignore the national electric code, or intentionally create unsafe conditions to save a few bucks, I know Trump isn't arguing for due process rights to be violated. He simply isn't saying that. He is no different than this crass, outspoken electrician, who's talking trash about how dumb this situation is. And he's right, it's dumb.

The debt clock just keeps ticking. The aliens keep pouring over the border. The hospitals go more and more into the red. On and on. It's like there's a leak in your building. Trump is the blue collar plumber. He's saying, hey, uh, there's a leak. It's big. And it's getting bigger. He sees how to fix it. He's got the tools right now. He says he could do this, or the other thing. But then you've got the building manager, who studied Art History in school, or something, and he's saying, no no, you can't do that. Before you can fix it, we need to fill out this form, and the other form, apply for this permit, submit a funding request which must be reviewed, purchasing debt must get the supplies from our approved vendor, etc. On and on. Meanwhile... your building is flooding. The sheetrock is growing moldy and starting to rot. And this may seem like funny but obviously exaggerated fictitious example, but it's actually not. I can tell you many real stories that are very similar to this. I know of a national news worthy situation right now with a major institution where a substantial life health safety issue exists, and has been known to exist for years, but they can't/won't address it because of this sort of bureaucracy and corruption. It's a time bomb and eventually people are going to get killed. If they don't address it, not if, but when. The sort of thing I could blow the whistle on, but if I did, would lose my clearance and never work in that industry again. If not face worse repercussions.

Trump is not scary.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:50 am 
Holy Ghost

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Water Dog wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I don't think you or the "frustrated conservatives" who want a quick fix are seeing immigration realisitically. It is a fact of human life. It's not something which can be reduced to a perfectly-controlled border that prevents all crossings and either accepts or rejects people without difficulty. It is difficult. Human beings are born on the planet, our nations and borders are artifical constructs. We can and we do have laws enforcing border control and immigration, but it must be acknowledged that this is an issue that requires time and work. As a conservative myself, I knew immigration was a complex issue and I knew that expecting quick and easy solutions is foolish. I was grateful for the bipartisan work done on immigration during the Obama terms. Things like DACA and military paths to citizenship were ways to untangle the complicated problems of immigration. Court proceedings are investments in making the management of immigration issues a sober and careful process.

When did I, Trump, or anybody, claim that the fix is "quick" or "easy?" That being said I simply disagree with you. It is not an impossible problem. As Trump continues to point out, our system is among the worst in the entire world. We are the leading country in almost every respect, economic, military, culture, whatever, and yet tiny little countries in the third wold manage to do a better job of maintaining their national borders than we do. I have lived in dozens of countries, traveled to many times that, seen it with my own eyes. From my own experiences I can tell quite a lot of stories highlighting the stark differences. Arguments like this that amount to "woe is me" wallowing in the mire aren't going to get anywhere with me. We are perfectly capable of effective border enforcement, which is both humane and legal. And in my view, that's all Trump is saying. He has the "get 'er done" mindset. Construction. Build it. Go go go. His work ethic is insane. While his personality may leave much to be desired, that kind of drive is what we need, I think. The politicians will debate this issue literally forever without getting anything done. We need a task master to inch the thing forward.


I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm saying it is complicated and more complicated than you or Trump seem to acknowledge.

I also have lived abroad, still do, and I've always lived near borders and crossed them regularly. It is a difficult issue, especially in cases of refugee problems and asylum-seeking. Have you seen the tent towns in Calais?

by the way, how many of those countries you've lived in actually use walls to enforce the border? The "walls" which I see are bureaucratic obstacles and they are quite effective.


Last edited by Meadowchik on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 am 
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I heard someone say (can't remember who it was) that Trump seems to be imagining that everyone around him is saying, "So, what are your thoughts on this?" Sounds about right.

I've said why I can't support Trump: the irresponsible fiscal policy, the bizarre foreign policy, the pandering to the religious right, the scapegoating of immigrants and Muslims. And so on. Note that none of this has anything to do with my assessment of his personality.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:55 am 
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Water Dog wrote:

The debt clock just keeps ticking. The aliens keep pouring over the border. The hospitals go more and more into the red. On and on. It's like there's a leak in your building. Trump is the blue collar plumber. He's saying, hey, uh, there's a leak. It's big. And it's getting bigger. He sees how to fix it. He's got the tools right now. He says he could do this, or the other thing. But then you've got the building manager, who studied Art History in school, or something, and he's saying, no no, you can't do that. Before you can fix it, we need to fill out this form, and the other form, apply for this permit, submit a funding request which must be reviewed, purchasing debt must get the supplies from our approved vendor, etc. On and on. Meanwhile... your building is flooding. The sheetrock is growing moldy and starting to rot. And this may seem like funny but obviously exaggerated fictitious example, but it's actually not. I can tell you many real stories that are very similar to this. I know of a national news worthy situation right now with a major institution where a substantial life health safety issue exists, and has been known to exist for years, but they can't/won't address it because of this sort of bureaucracy and corruption. It's a time bomb and eventually people are going to get killed. If they don't address it, not if, but when. The sort of thing I could blow the whistle on, but if I did, would lose my clearance and never work in that industry again. If not face worse repercussions.

Trump is not scary.


No, show me where the big immigration disaster was in 2016. That's a fiction and it's a result or hysteria that Trump provoked. He is trying to pretend like that experience-wise blue collar plumber, sure, but there's no reason to believe he really understands immigration.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
The debt clock just keeps ticking.


This is highly ironic given that Trump's fiscal policy massively increased spending while cutting taxes. By the administration's own calculations, unless the economy grows at or near 6% a year, there will be huge deficits as far as the eye can see.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:49 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm saying it is complicated and more complicated than you or Trump seem to acknowledge.

I also have lived abroad, still do, and I've always lived near borders and crossed them regularly. It is a difficult issue, especially in cases of refugee problems and asylum-seeking. Have you seen the tent towns in Calais?

by the way, how many of those countries you've lived in actually use walls to enforce the border? The "walls" which I see are bureaucratic obstacles and they are quite effective.

I don't think either Trump or myself are unrealistic about the complications. Never been to Calais but have seen tent cities in other parts, was shocked to see the extent of it in Paris. But all that is not near as bad as in other countries. As for walls, I've spent time in Israel and the West Bank. Their barrier is very effective. I generally agree with your point though. I would rather see a non-physical barrier solution in the form of the de-incentivization of illegal entry. That frankly seems like an even bigger political hurdle than a wall, though. First and foremost, an end to birthright citizenship. I think we are only one of two countries in the world that do this. No brainer. After that we need to revoke access to public services. No free access to school. No free access to hospitals. Which means doing things people don't want to do... like refusing service at the emergency room. Which I agree, none of us wants to do. I don't want to do that. I don't want to kick someone who walks into the emergency room bleeding to death to the curb. That's horrible. But, at the same time, we have hospitals in rural Texas shutting down because they can't turn a profit and are by-law required to provide services for free. So now you have entire communities with no access to a hospital in emergency situations. There is no way to even begin to track the impact of that, but to be sure, people are dying. Not to mention the burden and increased costs of non-emergency care. This is a situation that is only growing worse. What's the solution? Either you have to decide to pay for this stuff, and budget for it accordingly. Reimburse these hospitals from public funds. Or eventually you simply have to tell people no and shut the door. The longer it goes on, the more abrupt and inhumane that will become. So, while I'd prefer other solutions, that's the game we've been unsuccessfully playing. If a wall could fix it, I say do it. If it could even help it, I say do it. Works in Israel. It worked in China for centuries. Fences work. Walls work. The theory is sound and tested. We successfully use walls for military bases all over the world. It allows us to control territory with a smaller human force. A wall and a single guy with a truck and a rifle can easily patrol and manage tens of miles of territory. By himself. And quickly call in reinforcements if a situation warrants. Completely changes the scope of the current problem and what border patrol has to deal with. 100% perfect? No. But OMG, it would certainly reduce the problem by a lot. Sure, people who are very advanced and calculated, with the right resources, prepared, they can find their way across a wall no problem. There aren't many people like that.

End of the day, a decision has to be made. Border or not? If the decision is border, then it has to be enforced. If we don't want to go through the uncomfortable experience of doing things like kicking people out of the emergency room, then we really need to focus on effectively preventing the illegal crossings in the first place.

Going back to the original topic at hand, though, I don't see how any of this makes Trump, or by extension me, into a bad/immoral guy. Whether the wall is a good idea that would work or not, separate matter from Trump's character as a person. I do not believe Trump to be a racist. I'm certainly not one. This is not about "race" or "white supremacy" or anything the sort. My family is bi-racial. Not that it's anyone's business. I'm simply not thinking in racial terms at all. It's highly offensive and disruptive to be accused of such. It's like being told I left the church "to sin." LOL. Okay, whatever you say. That's my reaction. Not only am I not persuaded into thinking the church is true, but bridges are burned, and I'm even less likely to give the church further consideration. I won't be shamed back to church.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:59 am 
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Water Dog wrote:

Take a step back and just think about what you're saying. Logically. Use some common sense. It is not possible for Congress to do away with due process. So, if Trump is calling for Congress to fix immigration law, how in the world can this be interpreted as a gesture that threatens due process? If his intent was to evade due process, he would go around Congress, not through it. And he would also do it quietly, covertly, not loudly on ____ Twitter.

What's your response to this? "Oh, well Trump's a total moron and just doesn't have a clue how any of this works and doesn't know what he's saying, blah blah blah"

Again, this was all started by you arguing that the accusation that "Trump has called for illegal aliens to be deported without due process" is a serious accusation. You were the one that thought that was a serious issue. I simply providing the tweet where he did just that. Whether he meant it or whether he could actually do it was never the question.

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If that's your response, you're an imbecile. One who's not interested in a serious discussion. Whatever his faults, Trump is clearly not a dumb man, or an incompetent man. He may not be eloquent, and you may disagree with his political philosophy, his morals, find his personality abrasive, whatever, but he's not an idiot.

Trump is a great salesman. That's what he has been his entire life, and he only sells one product - Trump. I wouldn't call him an idiot because he has great sales instincts that he has developed during his lifetime. However, he is an incompetent newbie on policy issues, simply because he has never served in government, yet he pretends to know everything there is to know. That's a problem because an incompetent newbie has to be willing to admit they don't know something, and learn about it.
Quote:
And that's simply not how this works. Do you really think Trump's words on twitter aren't being vetted?

Do you believe they are? Who vetted this?

Image


How can you possibly think his tweets are vetted? :lol:

Quote:
Even if you personally are dumb enough to actually believe Trump doesn't understand what due process is, this is the comical narrative playing on repeat in your brain, you don't think maybe someone else in the White House has explained it to him by now?

Oh, I absolutely believe it was explained to him......after the tweet went out.

Quote:
If all you're capable of doing is reducing him to a straw man caricature, it's at your own peril. It's why you're losing. It's why people like me will never take you seriously.


Why should I care what people like you think of me? I don't like Trump. I'm willing to say I don't like Trump. If you can convince me otherwise, great, but I don't really care what you think of me or my opinion.

Quote:
I'm not a dumb person. Nor am I an immoral person. And I don't need to be convinced of that by gaining the approval of anyone here. I'm here sincerely asking for a mature, reasoned, explanation for why Trump is a bad human, a bad president, and why I should be ashamed by him and vote to replace him.

Sorry if I made you feel bad about yourself, that wasn't my intention. I don't like Trump. Me not liking Trump has nothing to do with you. You have to understand that not everyone sees him the way you do.

Quote:
I want to hear other perspectives and am open to considering them. I'm trying to be genuinely thoughtful. And your response is, "I don't like the way he talks." You know what, I don't really like the way he talks either. I mean it doesn't get under my skin in such a personal way like it does for you. You know what I do like though? Supreme Court picks. ISIS dead. Peace in North Korea. Tax cuts. Regulatory relief. Booming markets. Serious, action-oriented discussion about immigration for once. Etc.

You don't seem to comprehend what you're up against.

I know. Every time I stop to think about it, I am still shocked that a man like Donald Trump is president, and the unwavering support he has built with 35% of the country.

Quote:
You're gonna have to do a lot better than refer to some random tweet, which can be reasonably interpreted in a different way, to convince me that Trump is evil and that I should vote against him.


I did not intend to convince you that Trump is evil or to vote against him. I simply responded to your request for evidence that Trump called for deportation without due process. You're the one who expanded the scope of the thread beyond that. I know I will never convince you to see Trump the way I do. I learned a long time ago that it's impossible to convince a Trump supporter of Trump's flaws. I just don't get his appeal. I'm genuinely shocked at the level of support he has, and how loyal his followers are, and I probably shouldn't have even waded into this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
The debt clock just keeps ticking.


This is highly ironic given that Trump's fiscal policy massively increased spending while cutting taxes. By the administration's own calculations, unless the economy grows at or near 6% a year, there will be huge deficits as far as the eye can see.

You'll get nothing but agreement from me on this point. Like I said, Trump is not a purist. The philosopher in me would like to see him refuse to sign any unbalanced budget. Not one additional penny in debt. Shut the govt down. Call Congress' bluff. Go golfing and tweet troll them while paychecks are suspended and people's mortgages start going into default. That's what I'd really like to see him do. And I'm serious. No mercy. Shove it down their throats. But, ROFL, I also understand why he's not doing that. Me talking tough, and the reality of making that decision are two very different things. Theory and reality aren't the same. These problems exist because the solutions are very uncomfortable. I don't like everything about Trump. But I do like some things. And I have to be realistic and measure expectations. I can't have it all. To the point of the opening post though, I'm not having a hysterical reaction to the things I don't like. People act as if he's Stalin, literally Hitler. Poor innocent families are being put in cages and murdered! The theatrics are amusing. Trump is a foul-mouthed teddy bear. He talks big, privately has a big heart, and push comes to shove and he rolls over.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
. I'm here sincerely asking for a mature, reasoned, explanation for why Trump is a bad human, a bad president, and why I should be ashamed by him and vote to replace him. I want to hear other perspectives and am open to considering them.


So. Let's say I maturely listed 100 toe curling Trump quotes. Let's be honest here. What do you do with that?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:17 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
So. Let's say I maturely listed 100 toe curling Trump quotes. Let's be honest here. What do you do with that?

I like you Doc.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:08 pm 
Holy Ghost

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:00 pm
Posts: 888
Water Dog wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm saying it is complicated and more complicated than you or Trump seem to acknowledge.

I also have lived abroad, still do, and I've always lived near borders and crossed them regularly. It is a difficult issue, especially in cases of refugee problems and asylum-seeking. Have you seen the tent towns in Calais?

by the way, how many of those countries you've lived in actually use walls to enforce the border? The "walls" which I see are bureaucratic obstacles and they are quite effective.

I don't think either Trump or myself are unrealistic about the complications. Never been to Calais but have seen tent cities in other parts, was shocked to see the extent of it in Paris. But all that is not near as bad as in other countries. As for walls, I've spent time in Israel and the West Bank. Their barrier is very effective. I generally agree with your point though. I would rather see a non-physical barrier solution in the form of the de-incentivization of illegal entry. That frankly seems like an even bigger political hurdle than a wall, though. First and foremost, an end to birthright citizenship. I think we are only one of two countries in the world that do this. No brainer. After that we need to revoke access to public services. No free access to school. No free access to hospitals. Which means doing things people don't want to do... like refusing service at the emergency room. Which I agree, none of us wants to do. I don't want to do that. I don't want to kick someone who walks into the emergency room bleeding to death to the curb. That's horrible. But, at the same time, we have hospitals in rural Texas shutting down because they can't turn a profit and are by-law required to provide services for free. So now you have entire communities with no access to a hospital in emergency situations. There is no way to even begin to track the impact of that, but to be sure, people are dying. Not to mention the burden and increased costs of non-emergency care. This is a situation that is only growing worse. What's the solution? Either you have to decide to pay for this stuff, and budget for it accordingly. Reimburse these hospitals from public funds. Or eventually you simply have to tell people no and shut the door. The longer it goes on, the more abrupt and inhumane that will become. So, while I'd prefer other solutions, that's the game we've been unsuccessfully playing. If a wall could fix it, I say do it. If it could even help it, I say do it. Works in Israel. It worked in China for centuries. Fences work. Walls work. The theory is sound and tested. We successfully use walls for military bases all over the world. It allows us to control territory with a smaller human force. A wall and a single guy with a truck and a rifle can easily patrol and manage tens of miles of territory. By himself. And quickly call in reinforcements if a situation warrants. Completely changes the scope of the current problem and what border patrol has to deal with. 100% perfect? No. But OMG, it would certainly reduce the problem by a lot. Sure, people who are very advanced and calculated, with the right resources, prepared, they can find their way across a wall no problem. There aren't many people like that.

End of the day, a decision has to be made. Border or not? If the decision is border, then it has to be enforced. If we don't want to go through the uncomfortable experience of doing things like kicking people out of the emergency room, then we really need to focus on effectively preventing the illegal crossings in the first place.

Going back to the original topic at hand, though, I don't see how any of this makes Trump, or by extension me, into a bad/immoral guy. Whether the wall is a good idea that would work or not, separate matter from Trump's character as a person. I do not believe Trump to be a racist. I'm certainly not one. This is not about "race" or "white supremacy" or anything the sort. My family is bi-racial. Not that it's anyone's business. I'm simply not thinking in racial terms at all. It's highly offensive and disruptive to be accused of such. It's like being told I left the church "to sin." LOL. Okay, whatever you say. That's my reaction. Not only am I not persuaded into thinking the church is true, but bridges are burned, and I'm even less likely to give the church further consideration. I won't be shamed back to church.


I am glad you wrote that. I appreciate it. Yet I am skeptical that such a hospital situation would represent a disaster. Have numbers and links?

I've not passed judgment on Trump here, but have criticised behavior. I do think it is a mistake to support him, and that people are legitimately upset at the endless ____ he's producing.

Did you see my response with the Pulse shooting speech?


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
You'll get nothing but agreement from me on this point. Like I said, Trump is not a purist. The philosopher in me would like to see him refuse to sign any unbalanced budget. Not one additional penny in debt. Shut the govt down. Call Congress' bluff. Go golfing and tweet troll them while paychecks are suspended and people's mortgages start going into default. That's what I'd really like to see him do. And I'm serious. No mercy. Shove it down their throats. But, ROFL, I also understand why he's not doing that. Me talking tough, and the reality of making that decision are two very different things. Theory and reality aren't the same. These problems exist because the solutions are very uncomfortable. I don't like everything about Trump. But I do like some things. And I have to be realistic and measure expectations. I can't have it all. To the point of the opening post though, I'm not having a hysterical reaction to the things I don't like. People act as if he's Stalin, literally Hitler. Poor innocent families are being put in cages and murdered! The theatrics are amusing. Trump is a foul-mouthed teddy bear. He talks big, privately has a big heart, and push comes to shove and he rolls over.


I just think he's ignorant, narcissistic, and not remotely capable of performing the job of president. I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I think it's wishful thinking to believe he's on top of the issues and has some sort of guiding principles for his presidency and for the country. So, yes, I do think his personality, skills, and experience are important, but I might be able to overlook all that if I thought he was doing a good job. I don't.

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