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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Existential threats can be a wake-up call. I've had a neighbor/tenant threaten to kill members of my family and assault my husband. There's nothing like feeling unsafe where you should feel most safe. But I know I have to look at the data to see the situations which go beyond my own observations.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:42 am 
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Water Dog, so it appears that this thread kinda went full circle for you, right? There are people upset about Trump, there are people upset about illegal immigration. Neither group negates it's position by being upset. Likewise, neither group's position is legitimized by being upset. The feelings are valid, but the positions and arguments require verification.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:25 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Water Dog, so it appears that this thread kinda went full circle for you, right? There are people upset about Trump, there are people upset about illegal immigration. Neither group negates it's position by being upset. Likewise, neither group's position is legitimized by being upset. The feelings are valid, but the positions and arguments require verification.


Yeah, it's not like anyone changed their mind. I'm not upset, just a little discouraged at how big a hole we seem to be digging with our allies this week. When our president goes out of his way to praise authoritarians like Erdogan and Viktor Orban while insulting Angela Merkel and Theresa May and threatening to pull out of NATO, one wonders how much damage we are doing to the one alliance that has maintained a stable and largely peaceful Europe for 70 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:27 am 
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Yeah I'm not sure where we ended up. I speak from a perspective that is a minority around here. Maybe I brought some food for thought, I dunno. FWIW, I do not doubt the sincerity and genuine goodness of those upset with Trump's leadership. I fully understand how something like "separating children" would rile people up. We shouldn't be so quick to assume the worst. I think we all just need to chill out a bit.

A quote from Hume comes to mind, "Where men are the most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have there given reins to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense, which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities."


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:29 am 
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Yeah. It is very discouraging to watch the president of the US praise authoritarian leaders and attack allies. It’s not as though it helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:42 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Yeah I'm not sure where we ended up. I speak from a perspective that is a minority around here. Maybe I brought some food for thought, I dunno. FWIW, I do not doubt the sincerity and genuine goodness of those upset with Trump's leadership. I fully understand how something like "separating children" would rile people up. We shouldn't be so quick to assume the worst. I think we all just need to chill out a bit.

A quote from Hume comes to mind, "Where men are the most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have there given reins to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense, which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities."


I don't doubt that a lot of good, thoughtful people, such as yourself, have good reasons to support the president and his agenda. What bothers me is that the assumption seems to be that people like me are going by emotion and being "riled up." As wrong as I think the separation of children from their families (not sure why the scare quotes) is, it didn't make me any less opposed to most of the Trump agenda and policies. The same accusation is leveled the other way, often unfairly, that Trump supporters are motivated by bigotry or hatred. Of course, many people on both sides are motivated by emotion and irrational beliefs. That's human nature.

Kish shared an article with me that explains pretty clearly my issues with the administration's trade and foreign policy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... it/565034/

You will likely disagree with most, if not all, of it, but to me this is a rational and logical take on the Trump agenda. If there is a reasoned case for what the administration is doing, I'm willing to hear it.

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Last edited by Runtu on Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:47 am 
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I frankly think Trump is a bozo but maybe the Russia narrative needs to be examined more closely. Are they a threat or are we provoking them by surrounding them with NATO, against what we had agreed when negotiating with Gorby back in the early 90's? And if Putin is merely a competitor and not an enemy, maybe NATO isn't needed or should be reduced at least? I just hate the continued sabre rattling and warmongering we keep doing since 911. Do we really need to go to war with Iran?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:54 am 
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Exiled wrote:
I frankly think Trump is a bozo but maybe the Russia narrative needs to be examined more closely. Are they a threat or are we provoking them by surrounding them with NATO, against what we had agreed when negotiating with Gorby back in the early 90's? And if Putin is merely a competitor and not an enemy, maybe NATO isn't needed or should be reduced at least? I just hate the continued sabre rattling and warmongering we keep doing since 911. Do we really need to go to war with Iran?


Putin is an imperialist just as we are imperialists. He wants to recapture the glories of Russia past and he wants to extend Russia’s power and influence. At the same time, he is the authoritarian leader of a completely corrupt kleptocracy. I don’t know about you, but I am not eager to see him succeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:19 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Exiled wrote:
I frankly think Trump is a bozo but maybe the Russia narrative needs to be examined more closely. Are they a threat or are we provoking them by surrounding them with NATO, against what we had agreed when negotiating with Gorby back in the early 90's? And if Putin is merely a competitor and not an enemy, maybe NATO isn't needed or should be reduced at least? I just hate the continued sabre rattling and warmongering we keep doing since 911. Do we really need to go to war with Iran?


Putin is an imperialist just as we are imperialists. He wants to recapture the glories of Russia past and he wants to extend Russia’s power and influence. At the same time, he is the authoritarian leader of a completely corrupt kleptocracy. I don’t know about you, but I am not eager to see him succeed.


I don't want him to succeed either, but we were lied into war with Iraq and there has been a war drum beat ever since 911. Perhaps we are being fed a false Russia narrative like we were with the Saddam Hussein connection to 911?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:20 am 
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A new day, a new news cycle, new things to get riled up about ;) I'm not up to speed on the latest outrage. But I do think our NATO situation deserves reexamination. The spending disparity. Our bankrolling defense for a lot of these countries, which is a fair description. Meanwhile Germany gets cozy with Russia and builds oil pipelines, etc., which is at odds with the narrative. If you look at the 20th century and what caused the great wars, it was not conflict between the great powers. It was conflict between satellite interests and the perceived obligation to stand by those people and bail them out. Then it escalated. We're getting ourselves into a similar state of quagmire. One thing I liked about Trump during the campaign was the way he spoke in a more libertarian way and seemed to want to close all these bases down, pull out of Korea, pull out of Germany, pull out of Japan, etc. Since getting into office he's toned that down. This is where he seems to be somewhat beholden to the establishment/warhawk side of the GOP... the McCains, Grahams, etc. In that sense I'm encouraged to see him pushing against NATO. If the Smart Set (TM) warhawks are upset with him, maybe this is good. And boy are they upset. Trump can't pull us out of NATO or alter the agreement, the Senate would have to do that. Trump can only stir the pot and get conversations going. Which I'm not seeing why that's a bad thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:27 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
A new day, a new news cycle, new things to get riled up about ;) I'm not up to speed on the latest outrage. But I do think our NATO situation deserves reexamination. The spending disparity. Our bankrolling defense for a lot of these countries, which is a fair description. Meanwhile Germany gets cozy with Russia and builds oil pipelines, etc., which is at odds with the narrative. If you look at the 20th century and what caused the great wars, it was not conflict between the great powers. It was conflict between satellite interests and the perceived obligation to stand by those people and bail them out. Then it escalated. We're getting ourselves into a similar state of quagmire. One thing I liked about Trump during the campaign was the way he spoke in a more libertarian way and seemed to want to close all these bases down, pull out of Korea, pull out of Germany, pull out of Japan, etc. Since getting into office he's toned that down. This is where he seems to be somewhat beholden to the establishment/warhawk side of the GOP... the McCains, Grahams, etc. In that sense I'm encouraged to see him pushing against NATO. If the Smart Set (TM) warhawks are upset with him, maybe this is good. And boy are they upset. Trump can't pull us out of NATO or alter the agreement, the Senate would have to do that. Trump can only stir the pot and get conversations going. Which I'm not seeing why that's a bad thing.


I see this a lot, the idea that if he's pissing off the establishment, this is a good thing. NATO has its issues, but it makes absolute sense for us to support our greatest force multiplier, even if it seems to be "bankrolling" them (a debatable position, IMO). If you believe withdrawing from our commitments around the world is a good "libertarian" thing, that's fine. I just don't find that a desirable option.

But I think I understand your position. I just don't agree with it. Is that arrogant? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:53 am 
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Runtu wrote:
I don't doubt that a lot of good, thoughtful people, such as yourself, have good reasons to support the president and his agenda. What bothers me is that the assumption seems to be that people like me are going by emotion and being "riled up." As wrong as I think the separation of children from their families (not sure why the scare quotes) is, it didn't make me any less opposed to most of the Trump agenda and policies. The same accusation is leveled the other way, often unfairly, that Trump supporters are motivated by bigotry or hatred. Of course, many people on both sides are motivated by emotion and irrational beliefs. That's human nature.

Kish shared an article with me that explains pretty clearly my issues with the administration's trade and foreign policy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... it/565034/

You will likely disagree with most, if not all, of it, but to me this is a rational and logical take on the Trump agenda. If there is a reasoned case for what the administration is doing, I'm willing to hear it.

I'll give this a read later and respond. I appreciate your point. This stuff tends to blur together, so apologies if I unfairly lumped you in with others. Same to any others. When these threads start to evolve, especially when you're by yourself with many other people chiming in, it's hard to separate discussions and speak to the individual. In the case of the separating children, I was trying to speak to the same frustration you are now. Without going back into the thread and pointing fingers, certain people were describing the issue with very harsh language that assumed or even openly accused malice and immorality towards those of differing opinions. This is what I was responding to. It's why I wanted to get into specifics and put the situation in context. I genuinely don't believe it's happening, that the separating children narrative is a flat lie, based on media hype that appeals to natural emotion, and nothing was said by anyone to dissuade me of that view. This is where I invite correction. I'm entirely open to changing my view if you can show me that something immoral is actually taking place.

I acknowledge the facts, that yes, in certain situations children are separated from their parents. I'm not saying this thing never happens. But I do not believe it to be a heinous thing. Children are separated from adults by authorities all the time. That's what happens when you arrest someone. How is this even news? In context there is so much more to the story. It accounts for a very small percentage of the problem, around ~85% of children in federal custody were taken into custody already in a state of separation from their parents. They crossed the border alone, or were sent to journey with strangers. In situations where we are separating kids from their parents, it's not a punitive thing. It may be for the protection of the child, because we can't even determine whether the adults in custody are in fact their parents. They don't have hollywood CSI DNA checking abilities over there. And it's not as if we're throwing people into dungeons. The media shows these pictures of kids behind chain link fences wrapped in foil blankets as if that's representative. Those were photos of a temporary staging area awaiting transport to other facilities which are actually quite nice and comfortable. And the photos being used were actually taken during the Obama administration, but it's presented as a Trump thing. Etc, etc., etc.

When you start breaking it all down, the picture is very different and the issue is not so "obviously wrong" as people here were making it out to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:56 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Kish shared an article with me that explains pretty clearly my issues with the administration's trade and foreign policy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... it/565034/

You will likely disagree with most, if not all, of it, but to me this is a rational and logical take on the Trump agenda. If there is a reasoned case for what the administration is doing, I'm willing to hear it.


Great article. Most of us aren't surprised at the nutty things Trump is doing. This is pretty much what I expected from a Trump presidency.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:59 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
I'll give this a read later and respond. I appreciate your point. This stuff tends to blur together, so apologies if I unfairly lumped you in with others. Same to any others. When these threads start to evolve, especially when you're by yourself with many other people chiming in, it's hard to separate discussions and speak to the individual. In the case of the separating children, I was trying to speak to the same frustration you are now. Without going back into the thread and pointing fingers, certain people were describing the issue with very harsh language that assumed or even openly accused malice and immorality towards those of differing opinions. This is what I was responding to. It's why I wanted to get into specifics and put the situation in context. I genuinely don't believe it's happening, that the separating children narrative is a flat lie, based on media hype that appeals to natural emotion, and nothing was said by anyone to dissuade me of that view. This is where I invite correction. I'm entirely open to changing my view if you can show me that something immoral is actually taking place.

I acknowledge the facts, that yes, in certain situations children are separated from their parents. I'm not saying this thing never happens. But I do not believe it to be a heinous thing. Children are separated from adults by authorities all the time. That's what happens when you arrest someone. How is this even news? In context there is so much more to the story. It accounts for a very small percentage of the problem, around ~85% of children in federal custody were taken into custody already in a state of separation from their parents. They crossed the border alone, or were sent to journey with strangers. In situations where we are separating kids from their parents, it's not a punitive thing. It may be for the protection of the child, because we can't even determine whether the adults in custody are in fact their parents. They don't have hollywood CSI DNA checking abilities over there. And it's not as if we're throwing people into dungeons. The media shows these pictures of kids behind chain link fences wrapped in foil blankets as if that's representative. Those were photos of a temporary staging area awaiting transport to other facilities which are actually quite nice and comfortable. And the photos being used were actually taken during the Obama administration, but it's presented as a Trump thing. Etc, etc., etc.

When you start breaking it all down, the picture is very different and the issue is not so "obviously wrong" as people here were making it out to be.


Well, as I said, for me the separation policy is neither here nor there. Yes, it has its origins in the Obama years. The difference now is the "zero tolerance" policy implemented in May. Before then, it was just a tiny percentage that were being incarcerated and subject to family separation. Now that pretty much everyone entering is supposed to be incarcerated, it stands to reason that it's having a much bigger impact. Morality aside, it doesn't make sense to incarcerate people and their families over what is essentially a misdemeanor. It may not necessarily be a punitive measure, but certainly some in the administration have argued that the separation policy is intended to be a deterrent.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:09 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
Yeah I'm not sure where we ended up. I speak from a perspective that is a minority around here. Maybe I brought some food for thought, I dunno. FWIW, I do not doubt the sincerity and genuine goodness of those upset with Trump's leadership. I fully understand how something like "separating children" would rile people up. We shouldn't be so quick to assume the worst. I think we all just need to chill out a bit.

A quote from Hume comes to mind, "Where men are the most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken, and have there given reins to passion, without that proper deliberation and suspense, which can alone secure them from the grossest absurdities."


I don't doubt that a lot of good, thoughtful people, such as yourself, have good reasons to support the president and his agenda. What bothers me is that the assumption seems to be that people like me are going by emotion and being "riled up." As wrong as I think the separation of children from their families (not sure why the scare quotes) is, it didn't make me any less opposed to most of the Trump agenda and policies. The same accusation is leveled the other way, often unfairly, that Trump supporters are motivated by bigotry or hatred. Of course, many people on both sides are motivated by emotion and irrational beliefs. That's human nature.

Kish shared an article with me that explains pretty clearly my issues with the administration's trade and foreign policy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... it/565034/

You will likely disagree with most, if not all, of it, but to me this is a rational and logical take on the Trump agenda. If there is a reasoned case for what the administration is doing, I'm willing to hear it.


Trillion dollar defense budgets need a continual enemy to justify and an inward looking america doesn't lend itself to perpetual war. Trump acquiesced this go round but infrastructure may take more of the budget in the future if we aren't careful.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:19 am 
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Runtu wrote:
I see this a lot, the idea that if he's pissing off the establishment, this is a good thing. NATO has its issues, but it makes absolute sense for us to support our greatest force multiplier, even if it seems to be "bankrolling" them (a debatable position, IMO). If you believe withdrawing from our commitments around the world is a good "libertarian" thing, that's fine. I just don't find that a desirable option.

I don't see NATO as much of a force multiplier. They need us, not the other way around. From my experience in the military, having served alongside some foreign militaries both in training pipelines here in the USA, and deployed in Afghanistan, there is not much we get from this relationship. From what I witnessed, the only real support we got was from the UK. We did get some legitimate support from them. They did good work in Helmand. Other militaries were more of a burden than anything else, and their participation was mostly a training exercise and political gesture for them. When you look at NATO and the current geopolitical map it becomes even more dubious. Turkey's inclusion being the most obvious red flag. I would also argue that the current alliance excludes friends such as Japan. Japan already has an impressive "self defensive" force. Their Navy is the biggest and most advanced in Asia, even surpassing China. We need to leave Japan. They are ready to venture outside and play without parental supervision. If we did so they'd get rid of their pacifist constitutional limitations and quickly grow into a formidable ally that would help multiply our force, especially in Asia and the pacific. To a lesser extent, ditto for South Korea.

Runtu wrote:
But I think I understand your position. I just don't agree with it. Is that arrogant? :wink:

No, unless your start psychoanalyzing my position in terms of racial and other such prejudices. :surprised:


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:22 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
No, unless your start psychoanalyzing my position in terms of racial and other such prejudices. :surprised:


I don't believe I've done that, but if I have or made it seem that way, I apologize. My parents, on the other hand, are clearly informed by racial and other such prejudices. I have no problem saying that. But they aren't you, obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:46 am 
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Runtu wrote:
Morality aside, it doesn't make sense to incarcerate people and their families over what is essentially a misdemeanor. It may not necessarily be a punitive measure, but certainly some in the administration have argued that the separation policy is intended to be a deterrent.

Eh. By comparison, get pulled over for speeding and then fail to provide identification and see what happens. People get arrested for misdemeanors all. the. time. If you aren't going to enforce the law, it isn't a law. It is reasonable to have a "zero tolerance" policy. I mean, shouldn't that be tacit? Why should such a policy even be needed? Enforcement of the law is implied. If the people of the USA democratically vote in favor of open borders, I will support that. I might not agree with it, but I'm not going to whine or try to vilify anybody over it.

The vilification of Trump for doing exactly what he's supposed to do is dishonest and mean spirited. Obama's politically motivated selective enforcement of the law is not something to be proud and brag about, that was shameful behavior on his part and only made the problem worse. This is a repeated issue. Obama, like virtually every politician, at one point talked tough about immigration but then flip flopped and did something else after being elected. McCain humorously has done this every single time he's been up for reelection. Every. Time. It's a sad commentary that people keep falling for it. Marco Rubio, same thing. He ran as a tea party candidate specifically on this issue, then totally stabbed everyone in the back. Then he said he wouldn't seek reelection when he ran for president, again a lie.

The way it all appears to me is that people in the minority view don't actually respect democracy. It seems that the people have repeatedly spoken, loud and clear, that they want to have a border, and they want it to be enforced. Powers that be though, politicians, both republican and democrat, and civilians, who want open borders for whatever nefarious or altruistic reasons, act in total defiance. That, among other reasons, is how you got Trump, as the saying goes. On a normal day, I would much rather have a gentle, eloquent voice. But I have grown cynical and suspicious of such voices.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:53 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
Eh. By comparison, get pulled over for speeding and then fail to provide identification and see what happens. People get arrested for misdemeanors all. the. time. If you aren't going to enforce the law, it isn't a law. It is reasonable to have a "zero tolerance" policy. I mean, shouldn't that be tacit? Why should such a policy even be needed? Enforcement of the law is implied. If the people of the USA democratically vote in favor of open borders, I will support that. I might not agree with it, but I'm not going to whine or try to vilify anybody over it.

The vilification of Trump for doing exactly what he's supposed to do is dishonest and mean spirited. Obama's politically motivated selective enforcement of the law is not something to be proud and brag about, that was shameful behavior on his part and only made the problem worse. This is a repeated issue. Obama, like virtually every politician, at one point talked tough about immigration but then flip flopped and did something else after being elected. McCain humorously has done this every single time he's been up for reelection. Every. Time. It's a sad commentary that people keep falling for it. Marco Rubio, same thing. He ran as a tea party candidate specifically on this issue, then totally stabbed everyone in the back. Then he said he wouldn't seek reelection when he ran for president, again a lie.

The way it all appears to me is that people in the minority view don't actually respect democracy. It seems that the people have repeatedly spoken, loud and clear, that they want to have a border, and they want it to be enforced. Powers that be though, politicians, both republican and democrat, and civilians, who want open borders for whatever nefarious or altruistic reasons, act in total defiance. That, among other reasons, is how you got Trump, as the saying goes. On a normal day, I would much rather have a gentle, eloquent voice. But I have grown cynical and suspicious of such voices.


Again it comes back to the argument that people like me must be for "open borders" if we don't support the administration's actions. That's nonsense. I'm all for a common-sense and cost-effective overhaul of our immigration system. I do not think building a wall is worth the massive expense. I guess that means I just want to wave everyone on in if they want to come here.

The law does not require incarceration for illegal immigrants, and previous administrations have judged that it's not worth the expense to do so. The zero tolerance policy is just that: a policy, not mandated by the law. Yes, people have voted for law enforcement, but this policy reflects a discretionary application of the law as harshly as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:22 am 
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Runtu wrote:
The law does not require incarceration for illegal immigrants, and previous administrations have judged that it's not worth the expense to do so. The zero tolerance policy is just that: a policy, not mandated by the law. Yes, people have voted for law enforcement, but this policy reflects a discretionary application of the law as harshly as possible.

Not only is incarceration not required, but under 8 USC 1325 there isn't even a mandated criminal penalty -- it allows for a civil penalty instead.

What the administration did wasn’t decide to follow the law, but instead they decided to strip the authority of prosecutorial discretion from the DHS, DOJ and state law enforcement.

In fact, in many cases, it was punishing those who were actually following the law (8 USC 1158).

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:24 am 
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Location: Northern Utah
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Not only is incarceration not required, but under 8 USC 1325 there isn't even a mandated criminal penalty -- it allows for a civil penalty instead.

What the administration did wasn’t decide to follow the law, but instead they decided to strip the authority of prosecutorial discretion from the DHS, DOJ and state law enforcement.

In fact, in many cases, it was punishing those who were actually following the law (8 USC 1158).


That people think the new policy is merely enforcing the laws on the books tells us how effective the narrative has been.

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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


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