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 Post subject: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:53 pm 
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https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... ormons-or/

When Donald Trump visited Utah during the 2016 primary season, he spoke at a rally
saying, “The evangelicals have been so amazing, everybody is so amazing, and do I
love the Mormons, okay? Do I love the Mormons!”

Now, more than two years later, it has become jarringly apparent that Trump’s
professed love of Latter-day Saints is, in fact, reciprocal among a large portion of the
Mormon population.

In January, a Gallup poll reported that 61 percent of Mormons approve of the
president. And although Republican presidents typically enjoy closer to 80 percent
approval ratings among Latter-day Saints, it still speaks volumes that Mormons
approve of Trump more than any other religious group, including evangelicals as a
whole.

As a devout Mormon myself, I must express embarrassment and sheer
disappointment that my faith would be at all associated with the man who sits in the
Oval Office. After all, Trump lives in utter defiance to nearly every Mormon teaching.
Whereas Latter-day Saints aspire to the virtues of humility, honesty, chastity,
compassion and overall moral decency, Trump is a stranger to these concepts.
Rather, he is an egotistical, self-indulgent playboy who pays little regard to the truth
or the wellbeing of others.

He possesses no loyalty to employees, political allies, wives or friends and, in the end,
looks to serve only himself. I have often heard fellow Mormons express their
grievances about the morally corrupt Bill Clinton, to which I must agree. And yet
Trump makes the infamous Slick Willie Clinton look like a school boy.

Pastor Robert Jeffress — who once referred to Mormonism as a cult — is the leader of
one of America’s largest protestant congregations, a contributing commentator on
Fox News, and a staunch supporter of Trump. When called upon to offer the
“evangelical reaction” to the Stormy Daniels story, Jeffress said, “We’re supporting
him because of the principles he stands for, not because of personal behavior.”

Despite the irony that many Latter-day Saints are joining the political ranks of those
who refer to Mormonism as a cult, I fear that many of my fellow Mormons are
adopting the same kind of hypocritical thinking displayed by Jeffress and so many
others. How is it possible to claim discipleship to Jesus Christ and look to spread a
message of truth, love and peace throughout the world, while simultaneously
supporting a man who stands for anything but truth, love and peace? Mormons in
support of Donald Trump are only undermining their own beliefs and the credibility
of the church as a whole.

Some might argue that although Trump has been nothing of a role model, Mormons
are also taught the principle of forgiveness and should refrain from judging his
undisputed character flaws. However, forgiveness is one thing. It is entirely different
to look for leadership in a man whose life has been defined by moral error. By all
means it is right to forgive Trump, but you don’t have to follow him.

In the end, much more than credibility is at stake. Trump’s high approval ratings
among Latter-day Saints proves that many Mormons are joining Jeffress and others
on the slippery slope of prioritizing party loyalty and political identity over faith and
moral conviction.

As it says in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, “No man can serve two
masters.” Similarly, it has become increasingly impossible to deeply regard the values
of the LDS church while also offering full fledged support to Trump.

And so, I pose the question: Are we Mormons or are we Trumpites? Both is not an
option.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Salt Lake City Tribune Opinion Editorial wrote:
And so, I pose the question: Are we Mormons or are we Trumpites? Both is not an
option.


Well when you consider the many similarities between Joseph Smith and Trump, like preaching a restoration of past imaginary golden era, or telling people they are special, or convincing people how mistreated and taken advantage of they have been by others, or the incredible narcissism of both men, the way they vilifying anyone who challenges them, the willingness to convince others to spend large sums of money that is eventually lost, the ability to get followers to allow, excuse, cover up, overlook, or deny their own personal immoral behavior in the pursuit of some larger pipe dream, and so on and so on....

The fact is "both" is exactly what Mormons are.

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Last edited by Fence Sitter on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:38 pm 
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I don't think it should matter if Trump slept with a pornstar or not. Like Clinton and Lewinski, these types of infidelities are between husband and wife. However, if it turned out that Trump was with underage girls when he traveled on the Lolita Express with his buddy Epstein, that would be another matter entirely for me. In any event, does this guy disapprove of politicians that don't follow the word of wisdom or aren't temple worthy?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
I don't think it should matter if Trump slept with a pornstar or not. Like Clinton and Lewinski, these types of infidelities are between husband and wife. However, if it turned out that Trump was with underage girls when he traveled on the Lolita Express with his buddy Epstein, that would be another matter entirely for me. In any event, does this guy disapprove of politicians that don't follow the word of wisdom or aren't temple worthy?

I guess that depends on what moral example one thinks our secular leaders should set. I agree such things should be between a husband and a wife, even at a presidential level. But if I were an active faithful LDS priesthood holder who voted for Trump how should I respond to my teenage son when he asks why I voted for a president who had sex with a pornstar? Remember, after murder, adultery is considered the most serious sin in Mormonism.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:39 pm 
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The older I get, the more I roll my eyes at these "you can't be X and Y" think pieces.

You can't be feminist and pro-life
You can't be fundamentalist and Mormon
You can't be Mormon and a Trump-supporter

I always just want to say . . . Really? Who made you the gatekeeper of the movement?

The best you can say is that people are being inconsistent/hypocritical in their ideology.

It looks like the author is a teenager though, so I'll cut him some slack.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:26 am 
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Exiled wrote:
However, if it turned out that Trump was with underage girls when he traveled on the Lolita Express with his buddy Epstein, that would be another matter entirely for me.

Oh yeah? Well, what if Trump and Jeffery Epstein were commanded to do this by an angel with a drawn sword? Should they be compelled to follow the law when they would otherwise be turned into kebobs?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:13 am 
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I think I was pretty lucky having nuanced-believing parents. At first I was not just disgusted but shocked at the level of LDS support for Trump. I thought "Surely we'll take a stand against this embarrassment running for office." Then I realized that the Mormons I thought I knew were not the Mormons I thought I knew.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:47 am 
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I consider this a call to Mormons to remember their better selves. Obviously one can be a Mormon and just about anything else at the same time, no matter how noble or repugnant, but in order for the aspirations of Mormonism to mean anything it must be the case that they can be invoked to urge people to choose better than they have. I applaud this author for taking up the task of reminding Mormons how they should ideally behave at a time when over half of Mormons in the US seem to have forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 am 
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I think diehard Mormon Republicans can get around this new Trump and Shera Bechard molehill by proclaiming that alpha males like Donald Trump and Joseph Smith have demanding sexual needs and therefore are not subject to the same conventional restrictions as the lesser Untermensch members. They can have their Stormies and exaltation too!

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:07 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Then I realized that the Mormons I thought I knew were not the Mormons I thought I knew.


This is exactly what I found. I have, or at least I thought I had, a fairly positive view of active LDS men. I have found them generally to be honest, hard working, good family men whom I would love to have as my next door neighbors. Leadership, even local leadership is a different matter. But my view of LDS men has taken quite a dive as the @metoo movement has evolved and as I have watched these same men justify, excuse, or deny what has gone on in the Joseph Bishop case or many of the more public #metoo cases. The immediate reaction in many cases has been to attack the victim, exactly the same thing we are seeing with Trump and how he and his devotees defend him.

Turns out that when it comes to women being victimized by Trump or Mormon men, there is a whole lot of denial going on by the perpetrators and their supporters.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:18 am 
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Trump isn’t my guy, but I’d prefer an Ebola virus to Hillary Clinton.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
Then I realized that the Mormons I thought I knew were not the Mormons I thought I knew.


This is exactly what I found. I have, or at least I thought I had, a fairly positive view of active LDS men. I have found them generally to be honest, hard working, good family men whom I would love to have as my next door neighbors. Leadership, even local leadership is a different matter. But my view of LDS men has taken quite a dive as the @metoo movement has evolved and as I have watched these same men justify, excuse, or deny what has gone on in the Joseph Bishop case or many of the more public #metoo cases. The immediate reaction in many cases has been to attack the victim, exactly the same thing we are seeing with Trump and how he and his devotees defend him.

Turns out that when it comes to women being victimized by Trump or Mormon men, there is a whole lot of denial going on by the perpetrators and their supporters.


Yes and unfortunately the conditioned sexism can linger even for exmos, including internalized mysoginy in women. I noticed it it took time for me to shed the idea that men's opinions were automatically more legitimate.

Specifically regarding sexual abuse, the church's structure inherently favors listening to and empathizing more with men. And if you've essentially been taught forever that you'd be a nasty sex monster without the Church, it will oblige you to sympathize more with sexual abusers. You'd be more likely to identify with them and protect them and hope they can lead normal lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am 
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esodije wrote:
Trump isn’t my guy, but I’d prefer an Ebola virus to Hillary Clinton.

a bizarre view.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:06 am 
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This thread is proceeding as if Stormy is Trumps most important moral problem. Is that a Mormon thing. Perhaps Stormy makes a screen the haze of which makes Trump more attractive.
The article is more to the point.

" After all, Trump lives in utter defiance to nearly every Mormon teaching. Whereas Latter-day Saints aspire to the virtues of humility, honesty, chastity, compassion and overall moral decency, Trump is a stranger to these concepts. Rather, he is an egotistical, self-indulgent playboy who pays little regard to the truth or the wellbeing of others."


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:09 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
esodije wrote:
Trump isn’t my guy, but I’d prefer an Ebola virus to Hillary Clinton.

a bizarre view.

Well I don't know that I would go so far as to say Mormon's would prefer Ebola to Hillary, but there is some truth here. Male leadership is so ingrained in LDS that I suspect a lot of those LDS who voted for Trump did so solely because they are used to excusing or ignoring the immoral actions of a male leader, but are not so inclined when it comes to female one.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:15 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
This thread is proceeding as if Stormy is Trumps most important moral problem. Is that a Mormon thing. Perhaps Stormy makes a screen the haze of which makes Trump more attractive.
The article is more to the point.

" After all, Trump lives in utter defiance to nearly every Mormon teaching. Whereas Latter-day Saints aspire to the virtues of humility, honesty, chastity, compassion and overall moral decency, Trump is a stranger to these concepts. Rather, he is an egotistical, self-indulgent playboy who pays little regard to the truth or the wellbeing of others."


For LDS, sexual immorality is the second worst sin there is, after murder. They are obsessed with what others are doing in the bedroom to the extent that they have tried passing anti gay laws, seek to define the term family for others and so on. That they would vote for a married candidate who openly flaunted his extramarital sexual exploits is hypocritical in the extreme. So while those other issues should be of concern to the LDS voter, I simply cannot fathom how they can openly support an unrepentant adulterer.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:16 am 
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By the way, I know a lot of LDS who are very anti-Trump, even over at MAD there are stalwart LDS defenders who cannot stand him, such as Bob Smith.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:35 am 
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moksha wrote:
Exiled wrote:
However, if it turned out that Trump was with underage girls when he traveled on the Lolita Express with his buddy Epstein, that would be another matter entirely for me.

Oh yeah? Well, what if Trump and Jeffery Epstein were commanded to do this by an angel with a drawn sword? Should they be compelled to follow the law when they would otherwise be turned into kebobs?


You make a great point as always. Trump should use the angel with a drawn sword defense if ever accused of being with an underage girl. Mormons will quietly understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:59 am 
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Just another case of TDS (trump derangement syndrome). There is no moral hypocrisy in supporting Trump, in or out of the Mormon context. It's not a surprise to see this sort of shame-based argument coming from a TBM inside the church. That is to be expected. It is, however, somewhat perplexing to see exmos resonate with this kind of thinking. A case of taking the boy out of the church, but not the church out of the boy, perhaps?

To a great extent I thought those who left the church did so as a consequence of morally abandoning and rejecting shame-based manipulation, and accepting the consequences of such, however painful they may be, not the other way around? Or have I had it wrong? Perhaps most who leave the church are not doing so for honest reasons, but in truth they are choosing to succumb to one cycle of shame over another, depending on which possesses greater power over their lives.

Regardless, it's disheartening that we cannot engage on more friendly terms. While I strenuously disagree with leftist political philosophy, I genuinely believe that most people are good. We all want the same things, though we see different paths for achieving those goals. Shame-based arguments like this that attack people's character and aim to win through manipulation and guilt instead of logic and reason are every bit the same as those tactics used by the old school mopologists.


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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:10 am 
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Uh, oh. Once Trump learns about this expect a tweet storm directed at poor Addison Graham for being a loser. What funny nickname will Trump give him?

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 Post subject: Re: Can you be a Mormon and a Trumpite?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:18 am 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
Uh, oh. Once Trump learns about this expect a tweet storm directed at poor Addison Graham for being a loser. What funny nickname will Trump give him?


"Addled Addie". :cool:

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