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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:46 pm 
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One form in particular that stands out to me is stair-step parallelism, climax, or anadiplosis. By using matching pairs of words, the writer builds a stairway of concepts that leads to an important conclusion.


This is hilarious. This is "strong evidence" for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Esoteric nonsense? No archaeology, no texts, no plates, no DNA, just esoteric BS. Joseph Smith in his lifetime was crowing about how much evidence there was in archaeology, for he claimed that it existed. Now, the apologists ignore Smith, claiming that he didn't know what the heck he was talking about, and make up crazy wordplay scenarios that they claim are all the REAL evidence one needs to believe the Book of Mormon is real history.

This is simply looney tunes, invented for the wanna stays.

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Last edited by grindael on Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:51 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

It's not just Word Print Studies


Of course it's not, but it is always very subjective areas of academia that one can see what they want. At the same time they ignore or dismiss well established sciences that give us a lot of good information. parallelistic forms is very subjective and since Mormon and Moroni are claimed to have abridged all the records you would lose most of what we are supposed to see. That is why original documents are needed. Then you would lose more in translating into another language. Then you have the original English text a grammatical nightmare that had to have major editing. Ouch. Why not look at what the text says and see if it fits with what we see in the real world. It's similar to apologia these days with the Book of Abraham. They are also wanting us to ignore everything except the text and to see these same subjective relationships to ancient Hebrew. You give yourself away over and over again you are not very interested in knowing what is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:59 pm 
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grindael wrote:
You won't have a real discussion about Simon's opening post, that doesn't interest you, only defending 19th century fiction does.


It's hard to have a discussion in regards to something I agree with already. Go back and read my posts. My posts were in juxtaposition against his. He is arguing for external evidence and not finding the sign that says Zarahemla. I'm not arguing the fact that external evidence is non-conclusive. I was proposing that we ought to look within the covers of the BofM and look at the text/narrative itself. The thread over on the other board I linked to was expressly doing that, for the most part. That's why I linked to it. You're right...much of this stuff has been discussed over and over again and it does get rather boring/tedious. But when I see a thread that is focusing solely on the lack of firm external evidence for BofM peoples...with the resulting conclusion that there were no BofM peoples...I look at that as being one sided and incomplete.

That is really the only reason I brought up the fact that we ought to also be looking within the pages of the BofM rather than outside of the BofM in the dirt, so to speak, before reaching any firm and steadfast conclusions.

If you go back into the thread where I brought up Stylometric Word Print Analysis of the BofM you will see that Simon really didn't have much interest (one or two sentences) in discussing how these studies and other internal sorts of things going on IN the BofM might potentially disrupt the conclusions that he and others have come to as a result of inconclusive external evidence. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that there are a lot of folks...as Ryan said in the thread I linked to earlier...that haven't spent the amount of time that he has in looking between the covers of the BofM vs. looking exclusively at the writings/views of critics in reference to the external evidence or lack of evidence of BofM historicity.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:13 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
It's hard to have a discussion in regards to something I agree with already. Go back and read my posts. My posts were in juxtaposition against his. He is arguing for external evidence and not finding the sign that says Zarahemla.


It's more then that. It's one thing not to find a sign saying Zarahemla. It's another knowing that if the sign exists it should have shown up already. This is the DNA if you understood it. They have been looking at the whole genome, and there are ~3 billion base pairs. It's really hard to lose this from a group that has been fairly successful in passing on it's DNA, and the Book of Mormon claims three successful groups from the Old World. The problem is most, including yourself, do not understand just how big DNA is.

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I was proposing that we ought to look within the covers of the BofM and look at the text/narrative itself.


It has not been ignored MG. IT's just that what you have does not meet the requirement of solid evidence in academia. I am going to repeat cinepro's quote.

Quote:
Book of Mormon studies actually really reminds me of other "studies" that focus on conspiracy theories and supernatural phenomenon. Those who study UFOs, or Bigfoot, or the truth behind 9/11, also have voluminous research and evidences that are undeniable to the believers. They publish in journals of their own making, and hold seminars and symposiums, but, like The Book of Mormon scholars, their research is totally ignored by the evidence-based fields of research. There's a reason for that. They would all tell you it's because of a conspiracy, or the close-mindedness of the mainstream.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:14 pm 
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You are just being silly and deceptive. People have already looked at the text of the Book of Mormon and have found plagiarism, anachronism, and a hell of a lot more. Whole studies have been done on the TEXT of the Book of Mormon. But that isn't what Simon was discussing HERE. So your little dance here, is simply a one step with no partner. It's all you. Why would anyone want to get into such esoteric nonsense, when the text already has PROVED itself to be a 19th century creation?

But keep doing that one step. No wonder Simon did the side step at your predictable antics.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:17 pm 
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The only ones who want to pursue the esoteric BS of course, are the want to stay Mormons, who have a vested interest in inventing something... ANYTHING that they can latch on to, to keep on believing in Joseph Smith's greatest fraud.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:20 pm 
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There's a way out.... just admit it is pseudepigrapha as did the Community of Christ. But the LDS won't do that, choosing instead to die on that hill. (Cumorah).

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Huh. So we're doing this again...

- Doc

Hope not! But, speaking of snowflakes, how are you liking our heat wave out here? :lol: :lol:


So. So hot. Good thing we're doing low miles and taking some rest time. Massachusetts is pretty great, though!

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Mentalgymnist , above you stated that this thread is not looking at the text and should. You are wrong. This thread started out, and continued, by comparing the text of the Book of Mormon to the known information about the times and places involved. That requires looking at what the text actually says is happening, how that is being described. People have noted serious problems resulting from looking inside the book to review what the text actually says.

Those problems of the text are not solved by noting parallels to the Mediterranean ancient world, word prints that show differing authors or not depending upon the search methods, or observing a surprising degree of complexity in the text.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:35 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Mentalgymnist , above you stated that this thread is not looking at the text and should. You are wrong. This thread started out, and continued, by comparing the text of the Book of Mormon to the known information about the times and places involved. That requires looking at what the text actually says is happening, how that is being described. People have noted serious problems resulting from looking inside the book to review what the text actually says.

Those problems of the text are not solved by noting parallels to the Mediterranean ancient world, word prints that show differing authors or not depending upon the search methods, or observing a surprising degree of complexity in the text.


When you are referring to the "problems of the text" I'm assuming that you are talking about what Simon originally brought out in his original post, that is, how did Nephi and Co. accomplish all that the BofM says they did as they came to the New World and found that it was already inhabited? Getting the native population to basically become subcribers/followers of the Lehite colony. That is a problem to look at IF Nephi and Co. indeed settled among and infiltrated, and to a certain extent subsumed, the existing native population and became the rulers of large swaths of those native populations. That would entail a whole lot of 'conversion'...economy, language, culture, polity, religion, and what have you. That is a problem IF that's what happened and where it happened. Among the Maya and surrounding peoples. Personally, I'm not convinced one way or the other that the MesoAmericanists have it right. If they do, then these questions are BIG. If they don't, then Simon's whole opening post becomes somewhat irrelevant because the Lehites weren't where he thinks/says the apologists put them.

So when you say we have to look at what the "text actually says is happening, how that is being described" I'm a bit hesitant to put my eggs all in one basket and go with that...as far as historicity is concerned. That's why I brought up the other. Internal complexities of the text, etc. Because if we throw out the BofM because either we're in the wrong geographical place...Kaminaljuyu and environs...that, at least in my opinion, would be unfortunate. So yes, I say we look at the text, but we have to look at all the other stuff in the textual narrative that leads to the question, "Did Joseph Smith write this book?" I'm not sure that we can separate the two, that is, looking at the stuff Simon is bringing up without also looking at everything else going on in the text. Reason being, again, we may not be hitting the bullseye right on center when we're trying to explain BofM origins by looking at external evidences.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying. If folks want to continue discussing the what appears to be impossible achievements of Nephi and Co. within the setting of a certain geographical area that some folks see as being the actual location of the Lehite colony, then fine. But my contention was/is that the conversation may be misplaced...literally...as far as the location and situation being described/interpreted by both the apologists and the critics. Because the fact of the matter is, we don't know for sure one way or the other where the Nephites/Lamanites settled and integrated themselves into the existing populations.

It's all theory and speculation. I do agree with Themis though. DNA is a big deal. And I have read up on it a good deal from the position of being a layperson and not an expert in population genetics. And at least from what I can gather, the jury is still out on DNA. It's not a done deal. Even though it is quite persuasive in some respects. So that's why I brought in another 'textual' issue (again, how did we actually get this rather complex text) that we ought to set up against the other "what the text actually says" issue...because what the text actually says is open to a lot of variability in how it is interpreted.

So I'm cool on bowing out at this point and let the conversation go down the path of just how awesome Nephi was. :smile:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:09 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

When you are referring to the "problems of the text" I'm assuming that you are talking about what Simon originally brought out in his original post, that is, how did Nephi and Co. accomplish all that the BofM says they did as they came to the New World and found that it was already inhabited? Getting the native population to basically become subcribers/followers of the Lehite colony. That is a problem to look at IF Nephi and Co. indeed settled among and infiltrated, and to a certain extent subsumed, the existing native population and became the rulers of large swaths of those native populations. That would entail a whole lot of 'conversion'...economy, language, culture, polity, religion, and what have you. That is a problem IF that's what happened and where it happened. Among the Maya and surrounding peoples. Personally, I'm not convinced one way or the other that the MesoAmericanists have it right. If they do, then these questions are BIG. If they don't, then Simon's whole opening post becomes somewhat irrelevant because the Lehites weren't where he thinks/says the apologists put them.
MG


The questions are big and BYU scholars have been pondering them for almost a century. The entire apologetic community at BYU knows there really is no serious alternative to Mesoamerica, or for that matter Kaminaljuyu. [Meldrum and team Heartland are idiots] Nephi and Co. did not assimilate with a small group in a hidden corner of the New World. The Book of Mormon is crystal clear. You need very large populations who built large cities and had a written language. The only people that fit this requirement are the Mayans and Kaminaljuyu is the first significant Mayan city to appear in the archaeological record, albeit well before Nephi showed up.

Having said that I can sympathise with you MG. I do appreciate your honesty, as frustrating as your interest in word print studies is. I recently discussed a bunch of issues with a relative. It got to the point where I just backed off because I didn't want to hurt their feelings or harm our relationship. It was clear they believe because, in their current circumstances, they have to believe. They even admitted that.

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Last edited by Simon Southerton on Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:06 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I do agree with Themis though. DNA is a big deal.


It's not just DNA. All the big areas of evidence support a fictional Book of Mormon. MG, it's not just the Book of Mormon. The Book of Abraham is the smoking gun showing Joseph's claims to translate as completely false. And it's not just the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. They are more things as well. I can understand your need to keep believing and hope things go well for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:55 am 
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Themis wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
I do agree with Themis though. DNA is a big deal.


It's not just DNA. All the big areas of evidence support a fictional Book of Mormon. MG, it's not just the Book of Mormon. The Book of Abraham is the smoking gun showing Joseph's claims to translate as completely false. And it's not just the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. They are more things as well. I can understand your need to keep believing and hope things go well for you.


For determined believers, such as MG, the Book Of Mormon and Book of Abraham simply aren’t deal breakers. They can be pure fiction, demonstrable 19th Century in origin, admitted frauds, and it would not alter MG’s position of being a believing Mormon. He’d simply alter his convoluted apologetic path. The evidentiary truth actually doesn’t matter. It would not be a deal breaker for him were they to be admitted fictions.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:43 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Quote:
(wherein alleged authorship shifts some 2.000 times).


This is either a typo, or a purposeful and disingenuous way for the author to try to make one thing look like something very different.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:54 am 
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Quote:
Personally, I'm not convinced one way or the other that the MesoAmericanists have it right.


Surprise, surprise!


Quote:
If they do, then these questions are BIG. If they don't, then Simon's whole opening post becomes somewhat irrelevant because the Lehites weren't where he thinks/says the apologists put them.


Can anyone really be this dense??? :eek: They do not have it right and never have. It is those questions that are irrelevant, not what Simon wrote in the OP. He is totally relevant, cogent, and it is crystal clear (if you happen to have read ANYTHING he has written over the years) that he speaks the truth, while the (multiple sets of) apologists (many that he named) are lying and making stuff up as they go. When one argument gets debunked, they come up with another. We know EXACTLY where they are putting them. (for now at least). :rolleyes:

This will go on and on and on and on (as it has been), because they are right, Joseph Smith and dozens of "prophets" are wrong, anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, and the plain as day text itself is wrong.

Who knew that Mormon Apologists would one day supplant Mormonism's "prophets"? But that's the way they want it (Essays) so they have convenient deniability.

It's all a charade that the wanna stays will hold on to for dear life as long as they can as they pretend that they are not convinced one way or another, while once in a while, one of those wanna stays will admit (as Simon conveyed) that they really know it's all BS, but don't care.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:46 am 
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I have a question wrote:
For determined believers, such as MG, the Book Of Mormon and Book of Abraham simply aren’t deal breakers. They can be pure fiction, demonstrable 19th Century in origin, admitted frauds, and it would not alter MG’s position of being a believing Mormon. He’d simply alter his convoluted apologetic path. The evidentiary truth actually doesn’t matter. It would not be a deal breaker for him were they to be admitted fictions.


I would suggest why MG and other members are determined believers is that is what is expected of them to be members in good standing with both the church and it's culture. If both were fine with believing the Book of Mormon as fiction they would.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
I recently discussed a bunch of issues with a relative. It got to the point where I just backed off because I didn't want to hurt their feelings or harm our relationship. It was clear they believe because, in their current circumstances, they have to believe. They even admitted that.

What a tough place to be: "...in their current circumstances, they have to believe..."

There is a commenter, gemli, first brought to our attention by Gadianton, who makes some great comments on DCP's blog. Recently, he made a comment along the lines of your conclusion:
gemli wrote:
Given the number of contradictory beliefs that people have lived and died for, it's clear that reality is not a big factor for most when it comes to forming their beliefs. To believe in things for which there is no demonstrable evidence is part of our nature, as long as those things provide us with some tangible satisfaction...

It puts me in mind of another quote from the late, great Harlan Ellison:
Harlan Ellison wrote:
There are some people who are so blighted by their past, so warped by experience and the pull of that silken cord, that they never free themselves of the shadows that live in the time machine...

And if there is a kind thought due them, it may be found contained in the words of the late Gerald Kersh, who wrote:

"... there are men whom one hates until a certain moment when one sees, through a chink in their armour, the writhing of something nailed down and in torment.”

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/176400


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
And if there is a kind thought due them, it may be found contained in the words of the late Gerald Kersh, who wrote:

"... there are men whom one hates until a certain moment when one sees, through a chink in their armour, the writhing of something nailed down and in torment.”

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/176400


I think it's really, truly hard for a lot of nevermo's to understand just how deeply Mormons are brainwashed. And this emotional hijacking of our facties never really fully leaves us. Just yesterday as I was listening to some beautiful blues-y live music I noticed I was feeling uncomfortable on a deep level. After some reflection I realized it was related to growing up in a home where "worldly" music was an invitation to the Devil and an offense to the Lord or HG. Yeeeeeeears of hearing, reading, and talking about sermons where "worldly" media leads you to damnation got deep in me. Even now, 17 years on from my apostasy I'm untangling Mormonism from my brain.

MG is an object lesson on Mormon indoctrination, inculcation, and brainwashing. Rather than recognizing and rejecting his captors he's come to love them and look on them fondly. There is nothing else for him.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Themis wrote:
I have a question wrote:
For determined believers, such as MG, the Book Of Mormon and Book of Abraham simply aren’t deal breakers. They can be pure fiction, demonstrable 19th Century in origin, admitted frauds, and it would not alter MG’s position of being a believing Mormon. He’d simply alter his convoluted apologetic path. The evidentiary truth actually doesn’t matter. It would not be a deal breaker for him were they to be admitted fictions.


I would suggest why MG and other members are determined believers is that is what is expected of them to be members in good standing with both the church and it's culture. If both were fine with believing the Book of Mormon as fiction they would.


Well, for me...and I would hope to think many others...the BofM is indeed the keystone of faith in the restoration of the gospel. If I didn't think that the BofM may very well have had its origins in the distant past and was instead, "pure fiction", I wouldn't want to be a member in good standing. I'd be living a lie and feel like a hypocrite. There was a period of time in my life when, as someone commented earlier, I was doing the "fake it till you make it" thing. That actually lasted for a while.

But not at this point. I don't have to fake 'belief'. Granted, it took a good deal of time and effort to get here.

I just want to clear that up. :smile:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:

MG is an object lesson on Mormon indoctrination, inculcation, and brainwashing. Rather than recognizing and rejecting his captors he's come to love them and look on them fondly. There is nothing else for him.

- Doc


I reject that assessment. But I would say, I am an object lesson of someone who was indoctrinated into the LDS faith, later went through a faith crisis, and later emerged with a belief/hope that the CofJCofLDS plays an important/integral part in God's plan for His children that come to this earth.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:27 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I am an object lesson of someone who was indoctrinated into the LDS faith, later went through a faith crisis, and later emerged with a belief/hope that the CofJCofLDS plays an important/integral part in God's plan for His children that come to this earth.


Could someone kindly remind me of the last time that mentalgymnast said anything on this board that he has not, in essence, said many many times already?

Is he aware of the fact that he is just playing the same tape to us over and over and over again? What does he hope to achieve by doing this? Bore us all into Mormonism? Well, maybe that is the last shot left in the church's locker.

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