It is currently Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:17 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:59 pm 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
The Book of Mormon has been proven false via DNA and archaeology. Of course, one has to take the text and what Smith said as it stands, not a bunch of apologist interpretations that blatantly ignore what it and Smith said. Smith said specifically that the "Lamanites" or the indigenous people of the Americas were HEBREW. They are not, and never have been. This is what the Book of Mormon says. It is false and has been proven false. Game over. All the rest is just apologist BS.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:02 pm 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
And the fantastical civilization claims made in the Book of Mormon have also been proven false. I can go on and on, but it's beating a dead horse, a dead horse that died long ago. I don't know why people keep holding on to Smith's fantasy world, but like the Scientologists, the followers of David Koresh or any religious fanatic, this is what they want to do.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:35 pm 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
Posts: 7392
Bernard Gui's parallelomania quotes aside (and from an 11- year- old book which he explicitly states proves nothing about historicity, if I am reading him correctly), i thought Simon made a significant point in the OP:
Quote:
there you have it. The wilderness Nephi walked through contained many Mayan towns and villages and well established farming communities. They walked past fields of maize and cotton and orchards of sapodilla and avocado. They erected their tents in Kaminaljyu and began their Old World farming as though nobody was there. Then "can do kinda guy" Nephi walked up to the leaders of Kaminaljuyu and took leadership of the city, organized their economic system, converted them to their foreign Hebrew beliefs and got them working on team Nephi. But he chose not to mention this part of the history on his small plates because it wasn’t important.

Apart from being totally ludicrous, this scenario raises a pile of problems. Why would the Lamanites bother to follow them, past dozens of other Mayan settlements, just to fight with them? Its madness!

How did Nephi communicate with the leaders of Kaminaljuyu? Was he miraculously able to speak their language? If his technology was so impressive why do we see no evidence of metallurgy in the archaeological record at Kaminaljuyu? Why did they still use obsidian when Nephi had introduced them to the manufacture of iron, steel, copper and brass? Why doesn’t Kaminaljuyu stand out among the dozens of other Mayan cities that were all culturally connected? Why did their agricultural system not noticeably change? Why did they keep their old-fashioned Mayan written language?

So this new and quite different interpretation of Nephi's journey came about, not out of inspired research or divine interpretation, but solely as an expediency necessary to attempt to match up with some actual archeological data the authors have currently latched onto? What happens when the next discovery has some different aspects, will the Book of Mormon story change again?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:00 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12940
Location: On the imaginary axis
Thanks, Simon, for having taken the trouble to set out the issues in this very informative and carefully structured takedown of the nonsense in that 'Journey of Faith ' video. As you say, the idea that one can reasonably assert the following proposition is childishly nonsensical:

A: The Book of Mormon is, in the relevant portions, a genuine ancient text.

AND

B: The relevant portions of the Book of Mormon describe the arrival of Nephi and his party in a Mayan setting, and their eventual cultural and political dominance of that setting.

So far as that issue is concerned, there is nothing more to say (buried under Mount Doom, and so on). But your OP was an elegant and thought-provoking read. Thanks for posting it.



Simon Southerton wrote:
The apologists now concede, largely due to DNA research, that the Lehites were a tiny group who lived among a far larger native population. This major retreat creates enormous problems for the apologists because the Book of Mormon account is silent about any merger between the Lehite and Native American civilizations. I recently stumbled on apologetics that attempts to explain how this miraculous merger of Old and New World cultures took place. Its covered in a 4 minute segment in a 2015 BYU documentary called “Journey of Faith: The New World.” It turns out Nephi was just a really amazing guy at getting stuff done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pIBTr-x2gs

The segment of the DVD (16:16 to 19:50) covering the marvelous merger features John Sorenson and Brant Gardner (of course) with additional gravitas provided by Daniel Peterson and some touchy feely provided by a couple of sweet sisters.

The magnitude of the problem facing the apologists is perfectly described by Brant Gardner in this classic of pretzel-speak.

Quote:
The Book of Mormon never specifically tells us that they joined with other peoples, but everything that the Book of Mormon tells us indicates that they had to have joined with other peoples - Brant Gardner


In other words Mormons need to stop thinking about what the Book of Mormon actually says and allow the apologists to tell you what it says. The thinking has been done for you.

The DVD apologists argue that within 30 years of their arrival in the New World, Nephi took charge of the city of Kaminaljuyu in the Guatemalan Highlands and spurred its rapid cultural and technological development. This seemingly unbelievable power transition was achieved because Nephi was a “can do kinda guy.” That’s about as deep as the scholarship goes. The apologists zeroed in on Kaminaljuyu because of its central importance in early Mayan cultural development, especially the development of writing.

1. The true history of Kaminaljuyu
Kaminaljuyu was primarily occupied from 1500 BC to AD 1200 and it is where we see the earliest developments of Mayan language and culture. Michael Coe considers it one of the greatest of all archaeological sites in the New World.

Kaminaljuyu lies under modern day Guatemala City, which is located in a highly fertile valley in the Guatemalan highlands (alt 2000m) surrounded by volcanoes. The valley has been widely inhabited for over 10,000 years. Major settlements began to appear in 900–800 BC and by 400 BC there were dense populations found in the city and numerous surrounding towns.

Unlike most lowland Mayan cities, which were constructed of more durable limestone, buildings in Kaminaljuyu were mostly constructed of hardened adobe bricks. Well-developed agricultural production systems for cotton, maize, avocados, cacao, beans, palm nuts, plums, and sapodilla etc were practiced throughout the valley and underpinned the development of cities. Specialists practiced loom weaving and were expert potters. Large-scale workshops for obsidian tool making were spread around the ancient city. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminaljuyu)

2. Book of Mormon account
Thankfully, because the larger plates contain the drawn out detailed history, the peaceful take-over of Kaminaljuyu is described in a handful of verses in 2nd Nephi (2Ne 5:5-10, 15) (See https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/5?lang=eng).

Quote:
5 And it came to pass that the Lord did awarn me, that I, bNephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.
6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also aZoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the bwarnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.
7 And we did take our tents and whatsoever things were possible for us, and did journey in the wilderness for the space of many days. And after we had journeyed for the space of many days we did pitch our tents.
8 And my people would that we should call the name of the place aNephi; wherefore, we did call it Nephi.
9 And all those who were with me did take upon them to call themselves the apeople of Nephi.
10 And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the astatutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the blaw of Moses.
11 And the Lord was with us; and we did aprosper exceedingly; for we did sow seed, and we did reap again in abundance. And we began to raise flocks, and herds, and animals of every kind.
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.


3. Magical Merger apologetic
Those with a rudimentary knowledge of early Mayan civilization might see no resemblance between what archeology has discovered and what Joseph Smith revealed about this meeting of Old and New World cultures. Looks like the perfect job for the apologists. Here are some direct quotes from the DVD. Buckle up.

Quote:
Brant Gardner:
“When Nephi and his family separate from his brothers they go up over the mountains and come into highland Guatemala where they found the City of Nephi. … The best candidate for the City of Nephi would probably be in the area of Kaminaljuyu.”

John Sorenson
“Kaminaljuyu was in fact the seedbed of civilization in southern Mesoamerica and that is the picture we get for the city of Nephi in many ways.”

Brant Gardner
“Within a relatively short period of time the descriptions we are hearing about the city of Nephi indicates there were a large number of people there, so this is a remarkable accomplishment in a very short period of time. For someone to not only be able to gather large numbers of people together but to coordinate; to get them to live in the same area, to get them to have the same basic beliefs, to get them to have the same economic system, to get them working together rather than working separately and Nephi’s able to do that - pull them together.”

John Sorenson
“The sudden development is what I would expect of an immigrant party with a high level of skill; technologically; but maybe more intellectually and culturally, being inserted into a place and building in a new environment a new manifestation of civilization.”

Alejandro Gonzalez
“The influence of who dominates whom; the small arriving culture or the existing culture, is the one with more success. Who has more success in technological matters, in agricultural matters and in constructing buildings?”


So there you have it. The wilderness Nephi walked through contained many Mayan towns and villages and well established farming communities. They walked past fields of maize and cotton and orchards of sapodilla and avocado. They erected their tents in Kaminaljyu and began their Old World farming as though nobody was there. Then "can do kinda guy" Nephi walked up to the leaders of Kaminaljuyu and took leadership of the city, organized their economic system, converted them to their foreign Hebrew beliefs and got them working on team Nephi. But he chose not to mention this part of the history on his small plates because it wasn’t important.

Apart from being totally ludicrous, this scenario raises a pile of problems. Why would the Lamanites bother to follow them, past dozens of other Mayan settlements, just to fight with them? Its madness!

How did Nephi communicate with the leaders of Kaminaljuyu? Was he miraculously able to speak their language? If his technology was so impressive why do we see no evidence of metallurgy in the archaeological record at Kaminaljuyu? Why did they still use obsidian when Nephi had introduced them to the manufacture of iron, steel, copper and brass? Why doesn’t Kaminaljuyu stand out among the dozens of other Mayan cities that were all culturally connected? Why did their agricultural system not noticeably change? Why did they keep their old-fashioned Mayan written language?

This is the most pitiable apologetics I have encountered. It’s hardly surprising given Sorenson and Gardner are career apologists with essentially no publication history in peer-reviewed scientific literature. They have never experienced the intellectual rigour of peer-review outside of the BYU echo chamber. It was particularly sad to hear Alejandro Gonzalez whitewash over the true history of his people. The blatant racist, cultural imperialism in this apologetics is hard to stomach, particularly from a Native American. To make matters worse both Sorenson and Gardner have their names appear in the DVD when they are speaking. Gonzalez, who is the Director of the Teotihuacan Archaeological Zone in Mexico appears nameless and tieless and is only acknowledged in the end credits.

At some point it must get less embarrassing to face up to the fraud than to continue to perpetuate it. Are we there yet?

Note: Mitochondrial DNA research on in excess of 2,000 Mesoamericans and over 660 Mayans has revealed no Hebrew DNA. Whole genome research has also failed to uncover any evidence of Middle Eastern DNA in the Maya at a level of sensitivity approaching 1 in 10,000. In other words, they have effectively screened the genomes of 10,000 Mayans and found nothing.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:29 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
Did anyone doubt that it would come to this? That the Nephites were the invisible puppet masters of the MAYANS? And I'm sure that the Jaredites were the same with the Olmecs. I mean, what else do they have? The Nephites even have invisible DNA!

I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. :lol:

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:35 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
Simon, don't you know? Nephi had a helmet and a stone. The Mayans spoke and he put his stone in his helmet and the translation would appear. He then got the Mayans to get their own stones, so they could do the same. :wink: It gives a whole new meaning to the term "universal translator"!

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:04 pm 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
I don't see how they can just ignore this from the text (as Simon points out):

Quote:
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever. . . . [And then, after they have "rejected the gospel"...]
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

- 2 Nephi, Chapter 1, Book of Mormon (Thanks to MormonThink for having this handy)


This is CRYSTAL CLEAR and there is no other way to interpret it, except for what it says in black and white. There is no wiggle room here. None. You simply can't give any credence to what Mormon Apologists have made up out of whole cloth.

You know, I could see, if they found some Hebrew DNA, that Nephi could have been lying here, obscuring those others. But he is specific here and the Apologists have nothing to overturn what the actual TEXT says!

There is no DNA to back up their assertions, no archaeology, just NOTHING at all. Their silly videos and books and papers and speculations carry no weight at all. They are not a "starting point". They have no starting point except for WHAT THE FREAKING TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS. But they ignore that because there is absolutely no credible evidence that the text of the Book of Mormon is anything other than a 19th century invention that has been proved a fraud.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:11 pm 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
And not only is this in the Book of Mormon, but it is given as a PROPHECY as THE WORD OF THE LORD to Lehi. So if they want to go on and on with their apologetic nonsense, they are claiming that Lehi was a false prophet and that his prophecies are WORTHLESS. Don't they see how they are screwing themselves by claiming something other than what is in the text itself?

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:59 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 12745
huckelberry wrote:
Well there is the possibility that that opening subject of this thread is such a completed statement that not much more comes to mind to continue it. Boredom has induced person after person to go on about how mentalgymnist has changed the subject. Without boredom that diversion would have been given little consideration abd been lost in the ongoing discussion.


These threads usually don't last this long these days. Apologists like Brant Gardner have left long ago because they know they cannot defend their ideas. Their ideas need protection on Mormon friendly sites that will control the discussion. If they had the evidence on the side of a historical Book of Mormon they would love going to all these other boards and embarrassing non-believers while helping others to see Joseph Smith really did what he claimed. I would be right there with them defending LDS claims that have good evidence of being true.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:20 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 12940
Location: On the imaginary axis
Basically we have hunted out all the large, delicious slow-moving apologists that used to roam these fertile plains. How easy they were to catch and kill, and how good they tasted when barbecued!

Now we don't have anything as delicious as even a squirrel to toast. We are down to small, scuttering lizards that have only a dull repetitiously metallic taste to recommend them.

_________________
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:09 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1782
Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Well there is the possibility that that opening subject of this thread is such a completed statement that not much more comes to mind to continue it. Boredom has induced person after person to go on about how mentalgymnist has changed the subject. Without boredom that diversion would have been given little consideration abd been lost in the ongoing discussion.


These threads usually don't last this long these days. Apologists like Brant Gardner have left long ago because they know they cannot defend their ideas. Their ideas need protection on Mormon friendly sites that will control the discussion. If they had the evidence on the side of a historical Book of Mormon they would love going to all these other boards and embarrassing non-believers while helping others to see Joseph Smith really did what he claimed. I would be right there with them defending LDS claims that have good evidence of being true.


The lack of good answers by the apologists to questions about the church's truth claims is what sealed my decision to leave man-made Mormonism.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:14 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 16719
Location: Northern Utah
Exiled wrote:
The lack of good answers by the apologists to questions about the church's truth claims is what sealed my decision to leave man-made Mormonism.


I hung on for 10 years after realizing the Book of Mormon was a modern production. It wasn't until I realized the church was hurting my moral compass that I left. Not even Hebrew wordplay outweighs the moral costs of being a Mormon.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:37 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1782
Runtu wrote:
Exiled wrote:
The lack of good answers by the apologists to questions about the church's truth claims is what sealed my decision to leave man-made Mormonism.


I hung on for 10 years after realizing the Book of Mormon was a modern production. It wasn't until I realized the church was hurting my moral compass that I left. Not even Hebrew wordplay outweighs the moral costs of being a Mormon.


Stem and you are doing a great job over there engaging Mr. Dahle. Wordplay despite the absence of hebrew dna in the americas seems like poor evidence to me for historicity, but maybe I just don't have the right mix of enthusiasm like Jeff Lindsay does http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:41 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
I answered Christensen, here. While fun, it was a tedious task.

https://mormonitemusings.com/2015/10/27 ... -paradigm/

The amount of lying he does is simply staggering.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:46 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 16719
Location: Northern Utah
Exiled wrote:
Stem and you are doing a great job over there engaging Mr. Dahle. Wordplay despite the absence of hebrew dna in the americas seems like poor evidence to me for historicity, but maybe I just don't have the right mix of enthusiasm like Jeff Lindsay does http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/


It's not really worth bothering with. He finds these things compelling, and there's a not-so-subtle suggestion that I'm either too hard-hearted and/or stupid to understand or accept these bits of wordplay. As I said, I sometimes think the Book of Mormon is a Rorschach test in book form.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:12 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1782
grindael wrote:
I answered Christensen, here. While fun, it was a tedious task.

https://mormonitemusings.com/2015/10/27 ... -paradigm/

The amount of lying he does is simply staggering.

He is the ultimate defender of gas-lighting if there ever was one.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:15 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 16719
Location: Northern Utah
Exiled wrote:
He is the ultimate defender of gas-lighting if there ever was one.


I don't think he's a bad guy. I just object to what I see is his major misuse of Thomas Kuhn.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:22 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
Hey Runtu, your observations about Kuhn were very helpful.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:23 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
I found his whole approach extremely silly.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:25 am 
Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am
Posts: 6240
Location: The Land of Lorn
It's like, I will base my whole paradigm on one piece of evidence, while the mountains of evidence that show there was a very different paradigm going on is ignored. And then to try and back it up by misusing Kuhn. :redface: It's why I find what they do so very distasteful and have almost a visceral hatred for it.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


Last edited by grindael on Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:26 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 pm
Posts: 16719
Location: Northern Utah
grindael wrote:
Hey Runtu, your observations about Kuhn were very helpful.


Kuhn's point was that we all, consciously or not, follow a given paradigm, but that paradigms are forced to shift when they no longer explain anomalous data. He deliberately chose the word "shift" because he argues that the paradigm shifts just enough to accommodate the new data, and no more. The apologetic approach seems to be that, if your paradigm isn't getting you the results you want, pick another one that does.

_________________
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 51 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group